00:00
hello my name is Zoey fraud Lennar
00:02
author of super fandom and I'm here on
00:05
the big mouth pharmacist podcast my
00:08
biggest pet peeve with the supplement
00:11
industry is how easy it can be to hijack
00:20
people's innate urges to improve
00:25
themselves and to be part of a health
00:29
movement for personal commercial gain
00:33
welcome to the big mouth pharmacist
00:36
podcasts I'm Neil I'm the big mouth
00:38
pharmacist I'm a pretty sarcastic
00:40
slightly unprofessional healthcare
00:41
professional a holistic pharmacist here
00:43
to talk about everything wellness weed
00:45
and Woodstock we broadcast from the most
00:48
famous small town in America or I hold
00:50
court as the town's family pharmacist
00:52
who tries to get people off their
00:53
medicines and onto a wellness program
00:55
free of the BS and misinformation of the
00:57
natural products industry welcome
01:01
everyone I'm dr. Neil smaller holistic
01:04
pharmacist and owner of Woodstock
01:05
vitamins you can find me at Woodstock
01:08
vitamins calm also on Facebook Instagram
01:10
and YouTube as Woodstock vitamins check
01:13
us out on Twitter at no BS vitamins
01:15
which is probably the best Twitter
01:17
handle in the world we've got a very
01:19
interesting show today a lot of topics
01:21
coming up that many of us may not even
01:23
be aware of things so our guest today is
01:26
Zoe fraud blonde our she's a faculty
01:29
member at the NYU interactive
01:31
telecommunications program and the
01:33
studio 20 program at the Arthur L Carter
01:36
journalism Institute
01:37
she's a co-founder and chief designer of
01:39
the crowdsource toy company squishable
01:41
and she is an author she's written super
01:45
fandom how our obsessions are changing
01:47
what we buy and who we are you can find
01:49
more about Zoe at binary spark calm bi n
01:53
ary s PA RK comm so let's get right into
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it let's start at the beginning because
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most of the people that are listening
02:03
probably don't even know that this is a
02:05
thing so what's fandom that's
02:08
interesting usually ask me what the book
02:09
is about but they don't usually ask me
02:10
what fandom is that's that's
02:12
fascinating usually uh you managed to
02:15
hit a new one right out of the gate I'm
02:16
yeah yeah I'm getting I'm getting to the
02:18
core of it all I like it I like it
02:20
fandom it's an ancient phenomenon it's
02:23
the human urge we have to form groups
02:26
around pieces of pop culture whether
02:29
that's a shared love of a particular God
02:33
figure whether it's a shared love of a
02:35
celebrity or a book or a movie all of
02:39
these these things that pull us together
02:41
to form a community in order to to
02:44
appreciate it to contribute to that
02:46
thing to help it be better I just so
02:49
like the back in the caveman days we had
02:51
people that were like making their lips
02:54
puffy and then like dressing in the
02:56
certain kind of loincloth and like they
02:58
became the influencers at the time I can
03:02
only hope so so this is a unique
03:04
cultural phenomenon that seems to be a
03:07
part of human nature but it seems to me
03:10
that this idea of fandom is bigger now
03:13
than it's ever been and more important
03:15
than it's ever been you feel that same
03:17
way it really is it's only in the last
03:19
maybe 200 years that humans have had the
03:22
spare time and the spare money to be
03:25
honest you know with a wage economy yeah
03:26
in order to really be able to fully
03:30
start taking this to the extremes to go
03:34
after these things that they love so
03:36
much and also to connect with each other
03:38
about them so it's really only since the
03:40
rise of you know say concert halls that
03:42
we've had the concepts of a celebrity
03:44
that you could follow from job to job
03:46
it's only with the rise of trains that
03:50
we've had this concept of going to a
03:53
concert being able to go and then come
03:54
back home again instead of you know just
03:56
waiting for for something to come to
03:59
near your house right PT Barnum to come
04:01
to town right exactly yeah the circus
04:03
comes to town it's it's really only the
04:05
last 200 years that technology has
04:07
allowed people to do this yeah
04:09
but then of course within the last say
04:11
20 30 years that's happened again with
04:14
technology one more time we're now
04:17
digital technology has has allowed
04:19
people to do this even on another level
04:21
so we're kind of almost almost on a bit
04:23
of a staircase of fandom going on
04:24
here yeah so let's talk about what are
04:27
your kind of classic examples of when
04:30
somebody wants to know more about fandom
04:32
you know it really depends on what kind
04:34
of fandom right I mean we've seen this
04:36
huge rise say in comics fandom yeah and
04:39
that's that's followed this kind of
04:40
classic classic trajectory where we have
04:43
something which even twenty years ago
04:46
you wouldn't be caught dead going into a
04:48
comics movie a superhero movie right you
04:52
know not if you wanted the cool guys and
04:54
chicks to talk to you anyway you
04:55
certainly wouldn't ever take someone
04:57
there for a date yeah and then all of a
04:59
sudden there was this huge shift and and
05:02
that's actually due to a whole bunch of
05:04
different cultural phenomenon all at
05:06
once and now of course it's become
05:08
extremely acceptable in fact you know
05:10
very fashionable to wear a comic books
05:12
themed shirt or a superhero shirt or or
05:16
you know and have figurines or buy stuff
05:19
for your kids every middle-aged dad has
05:22
a Captain America shield t-shirt from
05:24
Target that sounds about right and even
05:28
the effect that that a mainstream outlet
05:30
like Target would touch it is something
05:32
that we forget is very very new and
05:34
there are a whole bunch of reasons for
05:36
that what are the things that like
05:39
influenced this like so so yeah when you
05:41
say fandom I think of geeks and nerds
05:43
and for the people listening I guess I'm
05:45
getting to supplements trust me I want
05:49
everybody to understand this concept
05:50
from a psychological standpoint because
05:52
there is a mental health piece to this
05:54
whole thing I'm sure we can get into so
05:55
what kinds of things are have influenced
05:58
this Raisa or made it acceptable for us
06:00
to be because you know I thought fandom
06:03
is like geeks and nerds it's just Star
06:04
Trek and Star Wars and that kind of
06:06
thing well what's interesting is it is
06:09
but it's not just geeks and nerds the
06:12
Internet is really kind of the the
06:14
secret sauce here that's lower this
06:16
barrier to entry and it's lower the
06:18
barrier to entry for nerdy geeky fandoms
06:21
so you know you can you can be in to say
06:23
comics fandom and no one has to know and
06:26
that's that's been very very powerful
06:27
that people can do this stuff in secret
06:29
and grow their fans I'm and secret and
06:31
their mainstream friend groups don't
06:33
have to know how nerdy and geeky you are
06:35
so that's had that's had a very big
06:36
effect the extension
06:38
hood and has had a big effect as as
06:40
people more and more people go to
06:42
college and then more and more people go
06:44
to grad school and of course the way the
06:47
economy's been that keeps people
06:48
children longer just because it takes
06:51
longer to get a job you might live at
06:52
home so longer it takes longer to afford
06:54
your own place so the longer childhood
06:57
is the more we fall back on these
06:58
childhood habits and and power
07:02
situations that we had when we were kids
07:04
so that's definitely made it more
07:07
acceptable to be into these nerdy geeky
07:08
things but what's interesting is both of
07:11
these are situations that don't just
07:13
affect nerdy geeky things right you
07:16
might be into something completely
07:18
different that perhaps beforehand you
07:20
were embarrassed about being into or you
07:22
felt like you were too grown-up to be
07:24
into and now you can do those as well
07:26
something like you know cheesy romance
07:28
novels you wouldn't want anyone to know
07:30
about now you can you can just let it
07:33
fly and no one has to know in fact
07:35
there's an argument the entire success
07:37
of the Fifty Shades of Grey franchise is
07:40
because no one had to know that anyone
07:42
was reading them you know rise of Kindle
07:44
made it so no one had to know everyone
07:46
could be a fan in secret so while it's
07:48
true it affected all these these nerdy
07:50
properties it then had this much larger
07:53
effect on say well to take it to your
07:56
topic health situations you know things
07:59
that perhaps you might be embarrassed to
08:00
discuss before hands diets you might be
08:03
embarrassed to discuss before had
08:04
lifestyles you might have been
08:05
embarrassed to let people know you were
08:07
doing now you can research and find out
08:09
about them and join in find other people
08:11
who are into them too without having to
08:13
worry about getting made fun of right so
08:15
it seems like it's like a safe space for
08:17
people to engage into these types of
08:20
things but then it's like they kind of
08:22
poke their head out and check around in
08:23
the communities and then it's like this
08:25
little litmus test that they do to see
08:27
if it's okay to talk about in public and
08:29
then once it's it's become known
08:31
publicly that it's okay to talk about
08:33
this then it just it's kind of like the
08:35
Care Bear rainbow power where it's just
08:37
like out of the chest comes their fandom
08:39
right is there something to that cycle
08:41
like the idea that it starts out in
08:42
secret and then comes to the mainstream
08:44
very much so so back when academics
08:47
first started studying a fandom there
08:49
was this concept called fandom as utopia
08:52
and the idea was that fandom was this
08:54
this safe space away from mainstream
08:56
society where the few creative you know
08:59
wonderful the people who are too good
09:02
for mainstream society could congregate
09:05
and hang out with each other and be safe
09:07
from from this horrible uncaring 1950s
09:09
1960s world so if you think of maybe
09:11
Star Trek fandom or a hippy fandom you
09:15
know these places where were people who
09:17
felt like they were better than society
09:19
could kind of come and be themselves but
09:21
it turned out very quickly that's not
09:22
actually the case in fact fans are just
09:24
as horrible and mean to each other as
09:26
anyone else's what fandom really is is a
09:29
place for people who maybe often feel
09:33
not so much rejected by society but
09:35
maybe where they can't express part of
09:37
themselves in mainstream society where
09:39
they can go and concrete and feel normal
09:41
yeah and that normalizing ability that
09:44
feeling of taking what perhaps you felt
09:47
judged for before and getting to feel
09:49
like well here it's actually a strength
09:51
it's actually something that people
09:52
appreciate and and in fact I get status
09:55
and in this new much smaller recreation
09:57
of society for it that's very very
09:59
empowering so one of the most important
10:02
process of fan groups is to make people
10:04
feel like you know that weird thing that
10:05
you're doing that it's normal we're all
10:07
doing it in fact let's see how good you
10:10
can do it let's see if you can get
10:11
status within the fan group for doing
10:13
that weird thing right so kind of
10:15
normalizing these otherwise rather
10:17
fringe behaviors right so what you're
10:20
saying based on the hippy fandom is that
10:22
Woodstock is the original place for
10:24
American fandom because we're here in
10:25
Woodstock it's certainly a classic one
10:29
it's probably the first time that a lot
10:31
of people came together and realize that
10:32
they weren't alone which is the classic
10:34
experience of fandom I I feel weird in
10:37
my regular mainstream life but here in
10:39
this utopian community I'm not alone and
10:41
and in fact what I'm doing could be
10:43
normal yeah yeah well definitely we have
10:45
normalized weird behavior here at a
10:47
minimum so would you say that fandom is
10:51
a bad thing or is this a good thing I'm
10:53
kind of wondering like is this behavior
10:57
in the modern day because you can see
10:59
how fandom way back when was like a
11:01
survival thing and probably social
11:04
hierarchy and and all the
11:06
other stuff kind of played into how
11:07
societies evolved and kind of survived
11:11
together but today and it's like hyper
11:14
aggressive state is it a bad thing or is
11:16
it is it okay what's your feeling on it
11:18
you know in general fandom is a very
11:22
very good thing
11:23
bar nothing in general okay people who
11:27
are members of fan groups they have a
11:30
safety net built in they have a
11:32
community and those are very important
11:34
things for mental well-being so mentally
11:36
it's fantastic for people people who are
11:39
active members of a fan group usually
11:41
report lower levels of anxiety lower
11:44
levels of depression definitely lower
11:47
levels of loneliness which which is a
11:49
very very you know dangerous situation
11:51
to be in that as you know loneliness
11:53
causes all kinds of health problems yeah
11:55
so from a general sense being in a fan
12:01
group is fantastic for you especially if
12:03
it's a fan group with a very heavily
12:04
social aspect and and part of that is
12:07
just because being part of a community
12:09
is good for you it's very important no
12:11
matter what that community is built
12:13
around and partially it's because doing
12:15
what's called the fan like activities
12:17
the experiences that go into being a fan
12:21
that can be very good for you so
12:23
activities like taking pilgrimages to
12:25
places of importance to the fan group
12:27
making content in service of that fan
12:31
group you know things like drawing and
12:33
making music and creating arts and
12:35
crafts all these classic things that
12:37
fans often do making recipes activities
12:40
like like socializing with each other
12:41
like evangelizing to new people so all
12:44
of those are very very good for you and
12:46
all things that fandom encourages but
12:48
there's there's a dark side I would
12:52
imagine like this rise of Nazism is like
12:55
a fandom type thing so this is the dark
12:58
side because one of the points of fandom
13:01
is to normalize otherwise fringe
13:04
behavior it means that you're kind of
13:06
taking a step out of that that Brownian
13:09
motion of society that that motion which
13:11
is constantly reminding you what is in
13:13
fact normal and normal is there for a
13:15
reason sometimes it can be harmful
13:19
there's also normality that keeps us
13:21
alive you know don't jump into this very
13:23
deep pit filled with stakes is in fact a
13:26
normal behavior that we should all
13:27
probably follow right so once you start
13:30
losing track of what's normal and
13:32
resetting on a new version no actually
13:35
it's normal to say starve ourselves it's
13:37
normal to take this bizarre pill it's
13:39
normal to you know do this this very
13:43
Fringe exercise routine and once you
13:46
start convincing yourself because
13:47
everyone you know is also doing that
13:49
thing that that kind of behavior is okay
13:51
it's very easy to lose track of what is
13:56
in fact good for you and what isn't it's
13:58
very easy to get shared toxicity shared
14:02
toxicity it's my new favorite term it's
14:05
a it's a scary phrase it means that you
14:07
start chasing after hierarchy within the
14:09
group to such an extent that the
14:11
original aims of that group may even be
14:14
lost you know it becomes so important to
14:17
move up within that fan groups hierarchy
14:19
that you become more and more dedicated
14:21
to to these possibly dangerous social
14:25
norms that may exist within it yeah
14:27
so what do you have some examples of
14:29
this shared toxicity I mentioned the
14:30
Nazism what are some examples of where
14:32
fandoms gone bad today you know there
14:35
are lots of marketing examples where
14:37
fandom has gone bad but when you think
14:39
of situations where fandom is actually
14:42
potentially could be hurting the fans
14:45
themselves okay you know health is
14:48
actually one of one of the classics for
14:51
example in the early zeroes there were
14:52
these groups called pro-ana groups which
14:56
were groups that sought to normalize
14:58
anorexic style behaviors and on one hand
15:02
it's actually a very supportive
15:03
wonderful nurturing situation you had
15:06
people who perhaps were lost in eating
15:08
disorders and they felt like no one
15:10
understood them they felt isolated and
15:12
then to find other people who are also
15:14
engaging in those behaviors that
15:16
probably was actually a very healthy
15:17
good thing
15:18
so if fandom was serving its purpose in
15:22
the sense that it helped people feel
15:23
like they were connected it helped them
15:24
feel like they weren't so weird but then
15:26
you start getting the toxicity of trying
15:30
to rise within those groups or trying to
15:32
prove
15:33
your membership to each other of passing
15:36
around information that otherwise
15:38
probably wouldn't be passed around tips
15:40
and tricks and things that probably
15:42
would be better enough for people who
15:43
are not in a unhealthy mental situation
15:46
to to delve too much into encouraging
15:50
each other supporting each other in
15:52
situations where allies people may have
15:54
gone and gotten actual professional help
15:57
really normalizing what is ostensibly
15:59
from an outsider's point of view very
16:01
unhealthy very scary very dangerous
16:04
behaviors and in fact encouraging each
16:06
other to do more of those instead of
16:08
maybe encouraging people to get help so
16:10
it's it's a really a situation where on
16:13
one hand yes you want people to have
16:15
support but on the other hand in fact it
16:17
depends on what you are supporting and
16:19
this this was really something which
16:21
potentially hurt a lot of people it's
16:23
become less popular now but they're
16:25
still out there yeah so the health and
16:28
wellness space you know we have a lot of
16:30
this it's some people refer to it as the
16:32
cult of personality where really the
16:34
advice can be complete misinformation
16:37
the advice can be borderline malpractice
16:39
but just because I trust that person and
16:43
they have the credentials and all of
16:45
those kind of like logical fallacies are
16:47
in play people will blindly follow this
16:50
person is that an example of fandom or
16:52
is that another like mental issue that I
16:55
should interview someone else it
16:59
actually is celebrities are a specific
17:02
type of fan object we have we have lots
17:04
of different types of fan objects we
17:06
have pieces of media and activities and
17:08
brands but celebrities are really
17:11
interesting category fan object because
17:13
there is often not always but often an
17:17
actual real person floating around in
17:19
there and in all of that rumor and
17:22
context and and franchise you know
17:25
opportunities and and branding there
17:27
there's actually a real person again
17:29
sometimes not always and the issue with
17:34
having a real person someone who's
17:36
unpredictable someone who's fallible at
17:39
the center of fan object is that they
17:42
can make mistakes there they're just a
17:44
person in fact they're being there
17:46
driven by my commercial implications
17:49
just like everyone else and we look to
17:52
celebrities often as our filters we're
17:55
in a situation where we're in massive
17:58
information overlord
18:00
but overload is not it's not really an
18:03
information problem it's not a data
18:04
problem information overload is a
18:06
filtering problem right we're constantly
18:09
being hit by billions of pieces of
18:11
information every second you know just
18:13
even coming through our eyes and our
18:14
ears and obviously we're not overloaded
18:16
by that it's just that we're not yet
18:19
used to how say the Internet throws all
18:21
this data all this information at us so
18:24
often we end up looking to celebrities
18:26
as nexuses for this information you know
18:29
we we follow George Takei if we want
18:31
funny memes and we follow say Jon
18:34
Stewart because we want to know funny
18:36
politics and we follow your your
18:39
favorite sports figure because we want
18:41
to know what's going on in sports we we
18:43
look to these people to kind of distill
18:48
down what we should actually know for us
18:50
and quite often when it comes to
18:53
lifestyle information celebrities are
18:55
very very effective coaches because they
18:58
often have aspirational lifestyles
19:00
lifestyles that we ourselves would
19:02
probably like to have for ourselves and
19:04
so we look to them we say oh I want to
19:05
look like her perhaps I should find out
19:08
what she does for her beauty routine
19:09
perhaps I should find out what he does
19:11
for his fitness routine and they become
19:13
that filter for us for this very
19:16
aspirational lifestyle coaching the
19:19
problem is they have access to a lot
19:21
more resources that us as regular people
19:24
do we're never going to be able to live
19:26
say Gwyneth Paltrow's lifestyle because
19:28
we don't have a team of stylists and a
19:30
team of trainers working on our our
19:32
bodies every second of the day because
19:34
that's her job she needs to have those
19:36
because being herself is is what she
19:39
makes money at so it means that any
19:41
information that we in fact do get
19:43
filtered through her is almost
19:45
inherently flawed because it's never
19:48
going to tell the whole story of how she
19:50
got that way
19:51
well that and now because of the brands
19:55
realizing the power of fandom in this
19:57
this cult of personality it's its own
20:00
biased completely like not even a
20:04
portion you know portion utley like
20:05
you're saying it's everything because a
20:07
brand can pay these people hundreds of
20:10
thousands of dollars to just mention
20:12
their product or their vacation place or
20:15
or whatever and and it's not even really
20:18
what this effective coach living this
20:22
aspirational lifestyle has many people
20:25
don't realize that there are these huge
20:28
market places online where brands can
20:31
bid on and how much they are willing to
20:34
pay various celebrities to shill for
20:37
them you know it's we all think of of
20:40
deals where someone's publicist contacts
20:43
someone else's publicist and this all
20:44
happens on a high level that's not
20:46
actually the case I mean if you have ten
20:48
bucks you can go onto one of these
20:50
websites and simply say I want someone
20:52
who's in I don't know cosplay to talk
20:56
about how great my makeup is and it'll
20:58
give you a list of five thousand people
21:00
in cosplay who will talk about how great
21:02
your makeup is and you can look at their
21:03
pictures and click on them and then go
21:05
check out in a cart and two days later
21:07
they'll be talking about how great your
21:08
your makeup is yeah and it's a very
21:10
impersonal sort of a process and deeply
21:13
automated it's the kind of thing that
21:15
you can really do without ever talking
21:18
to the celebrity without ever even
21:20
interacting with them besides sending
21:21
them the pictures you want them to post
21:22
on their Instagram account and the check
21:24
yeah and I mean I think I think it bears
21:27
repeating
21:27
there is a marketplace where brands can
21:31
bid for celebrities and influencers at
21:34
all levels whether it's five hundred
21:36
followers or five hundred thousand or
21:38
fifty million to shill for their product
21:40
so people need to understand that and
21:42
this is why I wanted to talk to you and
21:44
specifically because of all of these
21:47
things are exploitation of something
21:51
basic to human evolution and human
21:53
functioning and society very much so
21:56
there's a phenomenon called Posse
21:59
syndrome POS se Posse syndrome which
22:02
it's a posse syndrome it's a phenomenon
22:09
that arose probably you know back on the
22:11
savanna if
22:12
have a great hunter or a great basket
22:15
maker or someone who had a very high
22:18
status within a community it made sense
22:20
for them to have people around them at
22:23
all times who are trying to learn this
22:24
amazing skill that they had people who
22:26
would maybe do favors for them people
22:28
who would you know give them gifts in
22:31
return for being close to them and
22:34
getting some of that status and what it
22:36
means is that as humans we've developed
22:38
this neurological urge to pay attention
22:41
to anyone who seems like they have a lot
22:44
of other people paying attention to them
22:46
if a lot of people are paying attention
22:47
to this guy well maybe he can teach me
22:49
how to hunt gazelles better I better pay
22:51
attention to him and what social media
22:54
often does is it hijacks that urge
22:57
towards Posse theories towards Posse
22:59
syndrome you can literally see how many
23:02
followers they have they they have that
23:05
social proof right there on their
23:06
account oh my god two hundred thousand
23:09
people are following this person I
23:10
better pay attention to them maybe
23:12
they're going to teach me how to hunt
23:14
gazelles but that's not the case they
23:16
easily may have bought those followers
23:17
those followers may be falling for a
23:19
different reason those followers may all
23:21
be in a different country just that
23:23
number isn't enough to tell us that we
23:24
should in fact be triggering our Posse
23:26
syndrome and of course with the internet
23:28
their Posse could be the entire globe
23:30
we're never going to be able to satisfy
23:32
our craving for being close to all the
23:35
people who also have a posse everyone
23:37
has a posse yeah so we've really
23:40
hijacked that that posse syndrome into
23:43
tricking us to thinking it's important
23:45
that we pay attention to people with
23:46
high follower counts when that's not
23:48
actually of course the case do you think
23:50
at the time of this podcast of course
23:52
Instagram has been kicking around the
23:54
idea publicly of removing the likes and
23:56
follow numbers what kind of influence
23:58
you think that would have on the posse
24:00
syndrome and what we're talking about I
24:01
think that removing the follower count
24:06
on Instagram would be disastrous for
24:09
Instagram but wonderful for everyone
24:10
else and Justin in the sense that it
24:14
would stop short-circuiting our
24:16
neurological urges that are telling us
24:20
to pay attention to people based on
24:22
follower accounts as opposed to what
24:23
we're actually care about
24:25
so I think it would probably allow
24:27
people to start following people who
24:30
they're actually interested in again
24:31
instead of constantly fighting this
24:33
evolutionary urge to simply pay
24:35
attention to people with big groups
24:37
right the modern systems are made to
24:40
hack into these traits of human nature
24:43
to exploit and to get them to do things
24:46
so like if I for example had a
24:49
supplement brand and maybe a podcast and
24:51
maybe a pharmacy what could I do to
24:54
exploit fandom to make my business this
24:58
rapid success if I had less scruples
25:00
yeah I mean it's put a plan into play
25:02
you have no scruples well the sky is the
25:06
limit I mean on one hands there are
25:09
things that that someone could do which
25:12
all right they're not exactly Shady
25:14
for example forming fan groups obviously
25:17
is is always going to be helpful for
25:19
anyone especially someone who does have
25:22
commercial imperatives so making sure
25:24
that your fans have a platform to
25:26
express themselves on making sure that
25:28
they feel like they're in a supportive
25:31
welcoming space because remember
25:33
utopianism is a big part of building a
25:35
fan group making sure that that they're
25:38
being loved bombs which is actually a
25:40
term that comes from cult creation where
25:43
you you flood your followers with
25:45
dopamine making them feel like they're
25:46
accepted and loved and appreciated so
25:48
all of those are things that a group
25:51
might do to get their group started but
25:54
if all you wanted to do would be simply
25:57
to encourage your fans to buy your stuff
26:00
yes yeah you can't go wrong with posse
26:03
syndrome you know make it look like
26:04
there are a lot more people paying
26:06
attention to a specific brand or a
26:08
specific person there might be faking
26:10
that social proof perhaps by faking the
26:13
comments making the reviews faking that
26:16
follower accounts anything that would
26:18
let people know hey there's a big hunter
26:20
over here I better pay attention to what
26:22
he's saying because he's the one who's
26:24
getting all the gazelles yeah
26:26
faking the numbers is almost par for the
26:28
course or just a piece of the business
26:31
anymore you know when you get started
26:33
they say have your family and friends
26:35
review your products have your families
26:38
and friends review
26:39
your podcasts you know just to get those
26:40
numbers up there so that way it tacks on
26:44
I mean we have 25 reviews I think on the
26:46
podcast right now and I think three of
26:48
them are real you know the rest of it is
26:51
my family going go Neal you know but
26:54
that's what kind of has to happen and
26:56
like you know it's an unfortunate thing
26:58
let's talk about reviews actually let's
27:00
dig into that concept because I always
27:02
like to say people make health choices
27:04
like they're figuring out what hotel
27:06
they're gonna stay out on vacation or
27:08
what restaurant they're gonna go to they
27:09
look to review so they might find a blog
27:11
article which could inherently be biased
27:14
because it's part of the whole marketing
27:15
complex for for the brand and then they
27:18
end up on a review site or some sort of
27:21
forum where this the social proof so
27:24
let's talk about reviews as it being so
27:27
important to us and in the part of
27:29
fandom yes
27:30
well people find fan groups usually
27:33
during periods of change during periods
27:36
of upheaval periods where they may be
27:37
questioning who are they where do I
27:41
belong what can I do to succeed you know
27:44
these these periods where where you have
27:46
unanswered questions perhaps
27:48
self-identity may be up in the air often
27:50
we come to our most deep felt fandom
27:53
this during you know high school when
27:55
everything is up in the air and
27:56
everything's changing our bodies are
27:57
changing our social lives are changing
27:59
our family relationships are changing
28:00
often we come to fandoms at the
28:03
beginning of college when we've often
28:05
made a move for the first real time we
28:08
comes then when we have a kid for the
28:11
first time or you know the fifth time
28:14
but but you know these periods of people
28:15
were questioning who we are so these
28:18
periods of identity searching are prime
28:22
times for us to be taking advantage of
28:25
when we're looking to the world for
28:27
answers the world is happy to give us
28:29
answers and that answer is often well
28:31
buy my stuff if you buy my stuff I'm
28:33
going to answer this for you if you buy
28:35
my organic baby toy you will be a good
28:37
parents you are curious about how to be
28:38
a good parents I have the answer you're
28:41
trying to you know get through puberty
28:43
and and you don't look the way you want
28:45
to well I have answer buy my cream and
28:48
your face will clear up so during these
28:50
period
28:51
where we're questioning so many things
28:53
reviews really carry much more weight
28:57
than if we weren't so desperate for
28:59
answers during those periods and really
29:02
when we're reaching out to the world for
29:04
for help not everyone who's going to
29:07
answer is going to have our best
29:08
interests at heart and that's that's a
29:10
very hard thing to keep in mind
29:12
especially when we're at our most
29:13
vulnerable which is when we're looking
29:15
to new fandoms but it is in fact the
29:17
case and and it's it can be it can be
29:20
scary that's when we're not always
29:22
thinking the clearest where we're
29:24
looking for anything that's going to
29:25
solve the problem do you think if Ernest
29:28
Hemingway was alive he'd have a twitch
29:30
channel where people would watch him
29:31
right I bet if Hemingway was alive he
29:35
would not have a twitch channel where he
29:39
would watch people right but he would
29:41
probably have a twitch channel where he
29:43
railed about how everyone else shouldn't
29:44
be letting people watch them right right
29:47
so the modern comforts of today I'm
29:50
imagine the the voices and the
29:54
influencers quote-unquote of yesteryear
29:57
in in the modern world right imagine
29:59
what that would look like today where
30:01
would these people fall in this fandom
30:03
circle it just blows my mind the stuff
30:06
that we sit and watch and do people will
30:08
literally watch someone else play a
30:10
video game that's a nobody somebody will
30:12
listen to a podcast of a pharmacist from
30:14
Woodstock right so there are these crazy
30:17
bubbles that can be made and there is a
30:20
lot of good that can come out of it but
30:22
you know my question is is how do we we
30:25
enjoy something and how do we feel part
30:28
of a group but do so in a healthy way
30:30
you know one of the most important
30:33
things that a fan group can do is it can
30:36
help you feel like you're part of
30:37
something bigger than yourself that's a
30:39
very romantic very powerful feeling but
30:42
at the same time it should also help you
30:44
feel more like an individual and that
30:46
seems like it's a paradox but but
30:48
actually it's not there's almost nothing
30:50
as individualistic in the world as
30:52
picking a new group to conform to so you
30:57
know this this urge to satisfy both of
31:00
these urges at the same time this urge
31:02
to be part of something bigger than
31:03
ourselves it serves to be
31:04
an individual who's special a special
31:06
snowflake all all by ourselves and it's
31:08
just us a good fan group can satisfy
31:11
both it can normalize the things that
31:15
maybe we want to be normalized the
31:17
things that we feel like make us special
31:18
we realize that we're not alone we have
31:21
support we can we can be ourselves
31:22
because we have backup but it can still
31:25
give us that freedom to make our own
31:27
decisions and to express ourselves in
31:30
the way we want to without that that
31:31
peer pressure and a good fan group can
31:34
do that if a good fan group balances
31:37
those two without tipping too far one
31:40
way or the other its able to let people
31:43
feel like part of a group we have
31:45
smothering them and that's that's really
31:47
the important thing is it possible to
31:49
trick a fan you know fans often are
31:52
looked down on as somehow that they're
31:55
they're being duped that they're being
31:57
tricked into their fans and that they're
31:59
being exploited and while it's true it
32:02
is possible to exploit fans by maybe not
32:06
giving them the whole story or
32:07
convincing them to do something they
32:08
wouldn't do otherwise at the same time
32:10
there is this concept called a smart fan
32:13
a smart fan is is the phenomenon that
32:17
fans understand at some level what
32:20
they're doing they understand that
32:21
they're playing make-believe
32:23
and the second that they that they're
32:27
not getting something useful out of that
32:29
fan relationship that they're going to
32:32
go find something else in fact you have
32:34
situations where entire fan groups
32:35
suddenly jump from one fan object to
32:37
another perhaps one one supplement to
32:41
another one singer to another one
32:43
videogame to another when they feel like
32:45
the first one isn't fully feeding their
32:48
craving anymore so while it's true it is
32:53
possible to exploit fans it at the same
32:55
time it's harder than people think just
32:57
because fans are smart fans understand
32:59
that what they're doing is by choice and
33:02
they can just as easily choose to do
33:05
something else huh very very interesting
33:08
because you would think that it's right
33:10
for the picking but you're basically
33:12
saying that lots of fans are very astute
33:15
in what they're and they're doing in
33:17
their decision making so it's not like
33:18
almost everybody is fits into that bin
33:21
of I can be tricked yeah not to get too
33:23
too philosophical here but there's a
33:25
concept love that we're from Marxism
33:27
this concept of cultural dupes this idea
33:30
that consumers are like little children
33:32
who don't understand that they're being
33:34
taken advantage of and that's just not
33:36
the case
33:37
consumers are often very informed maybe
33:41
not about their products but certainly
33:42
about why they're they're into what
33:44
they're into and if they suddenly decide
33:47
that what they're into isn't serving the
33:50
purpose they will they will go find
33:51
something else they're not they're not
33:54
nearly as gullible as sometimes people
33:57
think which in fact throws into stark
34:01
relief the times when when in fact they
34:03
are being tricked they are being
34:05
gullible because it means something
34:07
something really unhealthy and bad is
34:09
going on that's not how fandom is
34:11
supposed to work yeah do you have any
34:13
tips for people to be aware to watch out
34:16
for what things do they have to avoid
34:19
when they're participating in these fan
34:21
groups whether they know it or not any
34:24
fan group where it seems like it's more
34:28
important to gain status within the
34:30
group and gain acceptance in the group
34:33
then to be yourself and do what you want
34:37
to do it means that fan group isn't
34:39
working on your behalf anymore
34:42
and they do not have your best interest
34:44
at heart the point if anger you have
34:46
examples of that let's see really any
34:49
kind of toxic fan group and see if you
34:52
can think of some good toxic ones Amway
34:55
really really yeah any any exploitative
34:59
grouping hmm good ones specifically like
35:01
that think of a fan group such as
35:04
bodybuilding okay where the whole goal
35:09
of the fan group is to help you become
35:11
the best version of you to help you
35:13
improve your health to help you improve
35:15
your looks to maybe improve your
35:17
confidence this is this is a wonderful
35:20
goal for a fan group to help you find
35:22
other people who have similar goals to
35:25
learn from them to support each other to
35:26
be there for each other you know maybe
35:29
if things aren't going well
35:30
to give each other tips that's a
35:33
wonderful wonderful thing for a fan
35:34
group to do on the other hand if at some
35:37
point just being the biggest in the
35:40
group becomes most important then that
35:44
can obviously lead to say passing around
35:47
tips for doping or for unhealthily
35:51
pushing yourself into exercises your
35:53
body can't take and now gaining status
35:56
within the group showing that you're
35:57
better than other people in the group
35:58
that starts becoming more important and
36:00
it could normalize behaviors which
36:02
probably don't have your best interests
36:04
at heart
36:05
so noticing when that line starts to get
36:09
crossed when it's no longer supporting
36:10
you and your goals but actually changing
36:12
those goals into group status and
36:15
hierarchy style goals that's probably
36:17
when you might want to run for the hills
36:19
so are you then saying that the the
36:23
worst type of fan groups aren't the ones
36:25
that are promoting negative stuff like
36:27
is Isis a fan group like that again the
36:29
rise of white supremacy that's obviously
36:31
a fandom type exposure so those are
36:35
actually okay from a social perspective
36:37
even though the output is negative it's
36:39
a philosophical question the parts of
36:43
our brains which drive us to form
36:47
communities there's only one part of our
36:51
brain that does that really in terms of
36:53
trying to get us to form groups around
36:56
pieces of culture and of course the
36:58
piece of culture what that culture might
36:59
be there are lots of different options
37:01
for it so it's certainly piggybacks on a
37:04
lot of the same urges whether or not
37:06
it's causing similar effects that's
37:08
probably up to the debate but this this
37:12
human urge to find like-minded people
37:14
and and collect with them it can
37:17
certainly show itself in a lot of ways
37:18
some of them rather ugly obviously you
37:21
had this great quote I'm sure it's been
37:23
said before but I think it was just an
37:25
aha moment for me it's not the medicine
37:27
it's the spoon and I was a really like
37:29
mind blowing thing I pretty much like
37:31
sat on that for the rest of the weekend
37:32
it was it was great so it's it's very
37:35
much
37:36
well alright actually you know it's it's
37:37
funny cuz that's actually on topic for
37:41
what you were just mentioning you asked
37:43
if some of the
37:44
negative fandoms these fandoms which we
37:46
now know are very destructive certain
37:48
political fandoms certain religious
37:50
fandoms which we know you know ended up
37:53
turning out very badly for the followers
37:55
you know you end up with with cult
37:57
situations or mass suicides you know
38:00
really awful dark stuff yeah and the
38:03
question about is that good for the
38:05
followers no obviously not but the
38:09
reason why they sneak in I think a lot
38:12
of times under the door is this concept
38:15
of the fandom itself when you get down
38:18
to it doesn't really matter the topic of
38:20
the fandom isn't nearly as important as
38:23
how it makes people feel and how it
38:24
supports them for their own personal
38:27
goals and dreams it's it's very much not
38:30
the medicine it's the spoon it's the the
38:32
act of participating in a fandom is much
38:35
more important a lot of times than what
38:37
that fans I'm actually is for people so
38:40
how can we engage in what we love and be
38:45
a part of a group but then not be
38:48
exposed to or fall victim to the
38:51
exploitative stuff that happens as long
38:55
as being in a fan group feels good
38:59
you're probably in ok territory as long
39:03
as you feel like it's being supportive
39:06
of you as long as you feel like the
39:07
people are are have your own best
39:10
interests at heart and are being
39:12
respectful of your own personal goals
39:14
and feelings then you know what keep
39:17
doing it it's probably good for you as
39:19
soon as you feel like those fan
39:21
affiliations are being used just for
39:24
commercial gain maybe to sell you things
39:26
maybe to influence your opinions maybe
39:29
to change your behaviors and ways that
39:31
you're not comfortable with necessarily
39:33
or that you wouldn't ever have
39:34
considered if it wasn't for the
39:36
hierarchy within that fan group
39:37
reconsider they may not have your best
39:39
interests at heart dose alright great
39:41
that was an amazing insight into
39:44
something that a lot of people probably
39:47
don't know exists I think it's important
39:49
for people to understand because from a
39:52
mental health and even a wellness
39:54
standpoint we have to understand how
39:57
our brains work and how we are motivated
40:00
to do the things that we do and it's
40:02
great to have this modern world where if
40:04
you like to read about people who quilt
40:08
polka related blankets then you have
40:12
that ability to join these groups and
40:14
really let your passion flow but at the
40:18
same time there's all of these hacks
40:20
that can be done to make you do things
40:22
that you wouldn't really do originally
40:24
so I think that the concept of fandom
40:27
and understanding how this all works and
40:30
how it applies in modern times is super
40:32
critical for our listeners to hear
40:33
especially because that's part of our
40:35
messages the myths and misinformation
40:37
around the wellness base and a lot of
40:39
that comes from this cult of personality
40:40
and the identification of Who am I and
40:43
what kind of life am i living a healthy
40:45
life or a fit life so Zooey I want to
40:48
thank you for taking the time to one not
40:50
totally get creeped out when we started
40:53
talking at social media marketing world
40:54
and having a great conversation there
40:57
and then following it up here and giving
40:59
us some insight to fandom you're a real
41:01
expert on this so I want to say thank
41:03
you so much absolutely my complete
41:05
pleasure so that was amazing
41:07
I am very happy to have made
41:09
acquaintances with Zooey and have such a
41:12
great resource available to you the
41:14
listeners about this topic again if you
41:17
want to learn more about Zooey visit
41:19
binary spark com what I'm going to do to
41:22
kind of share the love of Zooey here is
41:25
I've bought 10 copies of her book and
41:27
what I'd like you guys to do is to like
41:30
our page on Facebook and share it and
41:32
we're gonna randomly pick 10 people that
41:34
do that to get a free copy of Zoe's book
41:37
we'll ship it right to you so I want to
41:39
thank you guys for listening and don't
41:40
forget to visit us at the big mouth
41:42
pharmacist on Facebook like the posts of
41:45
Zooey and share it and I will pick one
41:47
random winner she's available again at
41:49
binary spark common her book is super
41:51
fandom how our obsessions are changing
41:53
what we buy and who we are
41:54
thanks
42:02
you