Felix: Today I'm joined by Luke Droulez from Ladder. Ladder is a sports nutrition company dedicated to creating high performance NSF Certified for Sports workout supplements for daily use and was started 2018 in a based out of Los Angeles, California and generates millions in revenue. Welcome, Luke.


Luke Droulez: Hi, thanks for having me on.


Felix: So the idea behind the business came from a need that LeBron James has. So tell us more about that need and the origins of the business.


Luke Droulez: The origins of the brand can be traced back to 2014. During the NBA finals, LeBron James experienced issues with cramping. And I think following that season, he teamed up with Mike Mancias' trainer to identify protein powders. He hadn't taken a lot of supplementation up until that point. That the diet was there generally, the exercises there and obviously, the work ethic and skills. And so when they surveyed the market, they weren't able to find a protein powder that suited their needs in terms of purity, performance and safety. So at that time, they then worked to create their own. So brought in a team of scientists and experts and produce the first products of Ladder over the next couple of years, which were protein and pre-workout through connections, longtime friend, Arnold Schwarzenegger became involved in the business as well.
He's a seven time Mr. Olympia and huge advocate for both health and fitness. And had experienced in the past working with supplement brands, but also saw firsthand the issues that can occur within the space because things aren't fully FDA regulated. You can make a lot of claims without necessarily having to back it up. And so when he saw what LeBron was doing in terms of the initial Ladder products, he was really excited to get involved and be a part of a brand that aligned with his interest and his advocacy. And so with that, built out the next product, which was greens, a superfood greens, everyday product and all of that came together when the brand launched in November of 2018.


Felix: So at what point did you get involved in the business?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, I became involved with the Ladder business in September of 2019. So a little less than a year after it started as the Co-CEO.


Felix: Awesome, and what's your background?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, my background is, before Ladder, I worked at Parachute, the home essentials brand. Also based out of LA for nearly six years. I was the first employee and was with the company in various roles most recently as the CMO. And so I think what was fortunate in that experience is I got to see everything that went into building a business from scratch in terms of building customer centric processes, where to invest across operations, marketing and tech and it's been great kind of taking those experiences and those opportunities and applying them to Ladder. Getting the ability to start closer to the beginning and being able to shape those elements of the business.


Felix: Can you say more about that? I think a lot of the listeners out there are probably in this stage where they're just beginning and from someone that's had this kind of experience at much larger stage. What were some of the kind of key skills or attributes or practices even that you brought over from Parachute over to Ladder?


Luke Droulez: I think the big things where it's just having a clear sense of the brand identity. I think Ladder is similar to Parachute where the product is really great. Before I joined the company, I started using it before my early morning workouts, before bike rides, runs, weightlifting sessions and I could tell it made a difference. It was really cool to see the attraction that the company already had within professional sports teams and athletes. And so for me, the big thing I learned from Parachute was the idea of building community and telling a story around a really high quality product. Ladder is a more premium brand. And so as a more premium brand, it's important that we really focus on all the different ways in which we can help customers along their journey from the first time they hear about us, which could be through our founders, Arnold, LeBron. It could be through our athletes, our ambassadors up until the point that they purchase. And for our subscribers, ensuring that deliveries are on time, the packaging and unboxing experience is good and that the product quality experience is consistent throughout their time being a customer.


Felix: Okay, a couple of great things you said there. You mentioned first about brand identity. So can you give us your definition, your explanation of what brand identity means?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, I think ultimately product market fit is everything. And so for Ladder, the higher quality ingredients, the third-party certifications, the way that we manufacture the product tends to cost more. And I think because of that, it is for a more premium audience. The shoppers are a little bit more sophisticated. They're more knowledgeable about the supplement space and the nutrition space. And I think it's important for us to know that at one hand they know a lot, but on the other hand, they're also inundated with new information every day. And so when it comes to communicating with that customer, we have to use the right balance of statements that validate their previously held beliefs as well as information and education that adds new dimensions to their knowledge. We want to be that trusted source of content and products that fits within their already regimented diet and exercise.


Felix: So you mentioned education, is this more important when you do have a more premium product? Is that what you're finding?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, I would say so. NSF Certified for Sport. Only 1% of supplements are NSF Certified by Sport. And what that means for your listeners is that every single batch of our product is tested to ensure that there's no toxins, banned substances or heavy metals. And more importantly, that everything that is on the ingredient list is actually in the product. And it's kind of surprising to hear it the first time you do. But for us, getting more people to understand how important NSF for Sport is, is great. You don't have to be a professional athlete to care about what you put in your body. And increasingly, consumers want to know, it's like what farm is this from, who's behind these products and who's making them and what makes them special and unique. And so we found it really important to go that extra mile to explain that because at the end of the day we sell supplements. We don't sell substitutes. Our products are meant to take what you're doing and make it better.


Felix: Got it. Now, how do you find ways to educate the customer about relatively technical things that details they might not be aware of? How do you find ways to educate them on those pieces?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, it's a good question. I think it kind of depends on the customer needs. Certain people will reach out by customer support and we do have live agents who help with chat, with phone calls and with emails. People ask questions a lot on social, whether it be [DMs] or comments. And so it's kind of meeting the customer wherever they are. For some, they'd rather just know that there is a resource. So for us, it was going beyond an FAQ and building out our blog. We have over 50 pieces of content on our blog and looking to always expand that knowledge base so that anybody can access it, whether or not they are a Ladder customer. I think one of the easiest ways to build trust with people is to demonstrate that you know about the product space or the product environment and that you care about it. I think that passion translates into more passionate customers.


Felix: Got it. Now, how do you kind of get this feedback or calibrate that you're doing enough, you're doing the right things to establish the kind of brand identity that you want through things you mentioned higher quality ingredients, third party certification. How do you know that messaging is getting clear to your customers over time?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, you can do it a couple ways. I think obviously, speaking to your customers is always great. So it's the direct ways in which we solicit feedback is CSAT, customer satisfaction score. Every time somebody has an interaction with us, we ask for that feedback. Product reviews, every time somebody buys one of our products, we ask for their candid feedback and that has allowed us to make changes as we see fit. We look at metrics around ship times. Are our products being delivered in a timely manner? And then, we've done in-person tasting for new flavors. For existing products, we've done events and activations. Obviously, this was pre-COVID in terms of just seeing how people are interacting with the product and the brand and more native environments asking all the pro-teams that we work with, what they think about the product. Be engaged. You can use surveys, you can use reviews. And then, oftentimes the most valuable feedback you'll get is just in speaking to the customer themselves.


Felix: Got it. Now, when you do speak to your customers, what kind of questions do you ask? What kind of question have you found most valuable to give you direction when it comes to the next steps for your business?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, when it's in an interview context, I think you have to adhere the best practices where there's no bias being introduced into the question. So generally, we try to ask either questions that you can answer very simply, yes or no or questions that are more open-ended. Obviously, when it comes to structuring that data becomes a little bit harder. But at the end of the day, it's really about having the people to sit there and listen and kind of take in the information and then kind of communicate it to the rest of the team.


Felix: Got it. Now, when you came into the role, what are some of the biggest changes that you were most excited to start implementing?


Luke Droulez: I think the big ones are just really leaning into our identity as a sports nutrition brand. I think given the performance and the pedigree associated with the brand, you have these, the founders of these two big performers knowing the certifications, the ingredients and who is using the product. For me, it was clear that's where the white space existed. I think what's been interesting as the brand has grown and as we're kind of starting to gain more attraction is seeing ways in which we can communicate with people who are not necessarily doing a sport. It's like if I'm at a CrossFitter. If I do run. If I run, if I swim, if I'm a triathlete, our products fit perfectly within those needs. Or if you have different goals like weight loss or maintenance, Ladder, just because a product is designed and formulated for pros doesn't mean that you're with held from using it.
If anything, when somebody uses Nike Pro equipment and when you wear LeBrons, it's to elevate your game. Sometimes it's for style, but when it comes to the technical apparel, the reason that whole space has exploded is people want to be able to perform at the highest level no matter what level they're at. And if you've kind of think about your health and fitness journey as almost a Ladder, we want to support and get you to that next level. Once you get to one wrong, it's like we support you so you can get to the next one. And so I think that's the exciting part is having a brand that can equally appeal to someone who is at the absolute top of their game and someone who is really starting to invest in that journey.


Felix: Yeah, that's a good point about how when you are creating a product that is premium that is meant to improve the performance of pro athletes, how do you, I guess, get through that objection that a more general or in a market that's expanded beyond your kind of initial market where there might be like, oh, I'm not a pro athlete. I'm not doing it crazy. What do I need this stuff? How do you kind of get that message across that? It was working for pro athlete. Of course, it was going to work and improve your performance as well. How do you kind of bridge that almost objection that you may face with customers?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, it really comes into the education. I think making people understand that. And so for example, this year, we kicked off the new year with a campaign called rituals over resolutions. And it was really all about mindset, where we interviewed professional athletes, entrepreneurs, nutritionists, fitness and health gurus, the whole gamut, trainers. And we didn't say, how do I become you, but rather how do you set goals and how do you approach overcoming obstacles and challenges. And I think people really liked that content resonated because a lot of the hard work is just getting into a routine.
It's getting to a point where working out isn't a chore or exercise in any form, whether it be yoga, Pilates, whatever it is that is something that you look forward to, it's something that motivates you, it makes you happy, the endorphin rush because when you kind of get into that flow state, that's when our products kind of come in and help you get even more out of that. And especially right now, where people are at home, we're trying to encourage people to say, it's like if you only have 30 minutes, how can we help people with stretches or with workouts that are easy to do with the items around you? Because it's like the context is changing and we have to be able to adapt and change in order to kind of go with it, be with the times.


Felix: Right, and you mentioned this earlier about how you want to become a trusted advisor. And you mentioned education and content, especially with this campaign rituals over resolutions, how do you determine what is the content strategy? What kind of content to produce to attract and build this community of potential customers?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, a lot of it is set by what is going on at a broader level. If sports are going on inherently, there's going to be more content that you can produce around those ecosystems in not only athletes, but the trainers they work with, the nutritionist they work with, the physical therapist they work with. But when sports weren't at the forefront of people's consciousness, it's more so like starting at the home. It's what are things you can do at home that are easy and safe and still effective. Or for us, it's like our protein product when you mix it with greens is a pretty good meal replacement. So it's like if you want a super nutritious shake, that's not going to be hard on your waistline thinking about ways in which you can incorporate our product into cooking and baking and easy snacks and pre-workout, post-workout kind of routines.
I think a lot of that is really important because at the end of the day, it's like people's behaviors are changing. You would use to have to go into an office. And if you were going to go in an office, then you'd have to wear a certain apparel. Or if your workspace was remote, maybe it's more of the same for you or if you used to have to commute somewhere. It's like what happens when you no longer have that commute, can you take that time and reinvest it in yourself or are you putting it elsewhere? I think we try to be conscious of the fact that everybody's in different situations right now. Some people are in cities, some people have a little bit more space, some people have families or other types of obligations. The question that we're always trying to ask ourself is the content that we're creating relevant to the moment?


Felix: And you talked to us about this pre-interview where you mentioned that flexibility is a really important aspect of success with the business and you have to be able to pivot and react quickly. So COVID being an example, an example you've given so far relate to that. Tell us about how you guys are able to maintain this flexibility to adapt and make sure that the content you're creating is as relevant to the context at the time essentially.


Luke Droulez: Yeah, fortunate, we have a pretty lean, nimble team and we work with some pretty great freelancers and agencies. So people are neither comfortable with the idea. It's like we're at a startup. And the part of the fun really in being here is that ability to make changes and quickly and react to your environment before it becomes a bigger or more widespread issue. I can remember in the middle of March, it was clear that things are not going to continue as expected. So we had all hands meeting and kind of initiated that conversation where it was like, okay, we're all going to work remotely. There is no pressure to come into the office. We're going to have to obviously do things differently because we have to run the business and as lean of all manner as possible. And we're not going to maybe get access to things like big creative shoots or marketing events and activations.
We're going to have to change the way that we do business because customers, our customers and where they're going to be is going to change. I think similar things happened in June where I was thinking about what was going on, increasingly athletes were using their platforms for good and for social good. How are we aligning our brand with that of our founders and with other athletes and ambassadors to make sure that we are on branding on message. The biggest thing we want to avoid is pretending that things are normal and that consumers' behaviors are normal because I can understand if you have to make adjustments in your life. Our products might be one of the products that you cut back on. But I think what we think about is for us health and fitness is vital, almost independent of context. And it's helping people support those journeys in spite of everything that's going on is kind of where we like to be.


Felix: And tell us more about the kind of content creation system that you have. What are the channels that you distribute your content on?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, on our site as I mentioned, it's our blog and then we kind of use social media as a way to amplify blog content. So it's like you'll find it on Instagram, Facebook, at times LinkedIn and Twitter. We'll try and put it in our newsletters that we send out each week as well as any kind of emails that you'll get as a part of onboarding into the brand. We're looking for ways to incorporate it more into the customer service experience in terms of, hey, you reached out about this. Why don't you read out this useful article that can kind of give you more context on the response that I'm giving you? I think ultimately, it is an opt-in thing. Not everybody wants a multiple paragraph response as to the question that they're answering. But we like to provide that additional depth for those who seek it.


Felix: Got it. And do you have a team that works on creating the content like the blog because it sounds like it's the blog content is the main source of content then everything that spills out on social media is all intended to drive back towards the blog?


Luke Droulez: Or site. I think it's dependent on the messaging goals. If you look at our social feed, sometimes it points to the blog, sometimes it points to product pages and then sometimes the content on social is just meant to live on social. I think it's a fair expectation that if you're scrolling through Instagram, you may not want to leave Instagram. And so it's like, what kind of content can we create around workouts where you stay within that kind of ecosystem?


Felix: And so do you have a team?


Luke Droulez: So I think it varies. It's like the destin, the landing page or the destination if you will, is very much dependent on the creative and the messaging goals.


Felix: No, that make sense.


Luke Droulez: I think obviously you always want to drive people back to site, but you also have to be cognizant of does it make sense in light of the nature of the content? Because in a lot of ways we're equally as interested in content that can stand on its own and doesn't need to have a destination. It's like if you could learn something new and interesting and kind of continue about your day, that's a positive brand interaction. And I think the goals over time, you build up enough of those positive brand interactions that someone will be willing to potentially buy from you.


Felix: Yeah, I think there's a conundrum that a lot of, especially smaller teams maybe even solo founders run into, which is that there just so many places they can create content on their blog on a social. Do you drive them social to the blog? Is it a post? Is it a story? How do you guys think about that? How do you determine what just stand on its own, what can stay on its own on social, on your Instagram for example versus trying to drive them back to the site?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, I think it's just aligning on what your KPIs are. How are you going to measure success with what you're doing? And therefore, does it make sense relative to the content that you're producing? So it's like for me, it's working with the different teammates to figure out when we post this or when we do this, what's the end goal? In cases where it's building community or building deeper connections, deeper brand relationships, the KPIs are going to be different than if it's get someone onto a product page and get them to buy.


Felix: In terms of things that are most likely to lead to a conversion, what's the kind of funnel? What goes that kind of flow look like? Is it from socio to a blog to then buying, what typically works for you guys?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, it's interesting. Every time we've looked into it, there's not a magic formula per se. I think there's certain for certain people, the gateway into the brand is our founders. They see Arnold and LeBron talking about it or maybe it's our brand ambassadors. They see Alex Toussaint or Bec Wilcock or Johnny Hooper talking about the brand and then they want to learn more. It could be any of the network of affiliates that we work with. It could be a press piece about the brand. And then really from there, it's almost depending on what they do on site, I want to try and help that customer with whatever their next step is. And it's maybe you're not ready to buy. So then for us, the goal is maybe get you to join our email list or maybe for someone who's definitely in market, what do you need to know about this product or what do you need to know about the brand in order to purchase?
If you're comparison shopping, what are your hangups? And how can I address those pain points in your life? So it's like depending on certain comparison shoppers maybe the blog articles are useful or maybe you didn't get enough information on our product page where that's okay. For people who are subscribed to email, we test different types of content so then we can learn like, okay, for certain days of the week, certain content is going to do better than others and so we're going to increase. As the list grows, you can segment and personalize. I think the ultimate goal for I think any brand is personalization. And for us, we're continuing to learn about these kinds of different consumer preferences and kind of bucketing customers into these bigger groups in terms of where they're at in their purchase journey.


Felix: You sort of speaking of personalization, it sounds what you're talking about is also segmentation. What are the kind of segments that you like to kind of break things up into?


Luke Droulez: I mean, I think it's kind of the big ones that you always will hear in terms of awareness consideration and then purchase. If somebody is in the awareness stage, the biggest thing that I want them to know is that Ladders is just a supplement brand or a sport nutrition brand that sells premium protein, superfood greens, pre-workout and hydration and then as well as produces content from experts for consideration. And it depends what angle they're coming in, but it's just, as I mentioned, addressing specific pain points, whether it relates to the products or any element of the brand that they want to learn more about. Some people want to know why it's called Ladder or some people want to know how the founders became involved or some people want to know more about NSF Certified for Sport. What do these things mean. And so we're kind of there for that.
And then for purchase, I think that's the more kind of boiler plate stuff. You know that somebody is going to buy or wants to buy at that point. What is that final thing to get them over the hump? Or is it just knowing that they're going to purchase and just kind of letting them make that decision on their own because everybody's reached that point where they buy something and then they end up getting retargeted by that brand after they bought something with ads. And I think we try to avoid those situations where you've already taken the leap, you've already made that purchase and yet it still feels we're trying to get you to do more. And so that's kind of what I try to focus on.


Felix: Got it. So is this kind of segmentation, is this easiest through email or you're doing this through at paid advertising?


Luke Droulez: It can happen across the board. I don't think it's really a matter of defining why somebody would fit in that bucket and what are the key KPIs within each of those buckets?


Felix: Got it. Now let's, I guess, let's talk about email specifically when someone is in this awareness stage, what kind of emails are you sending them?


Luke Droulez: A lot of it is just, I think you always want to give somebody a sense of the kind of content that they can expect if they were a customer or if they stay on the newsletter. So for us, it's a lot of the content that you'll find on our blogs, where it's like recipes, nutrition, fitness, lifestyle, health, athlete profiles. I think those are kind of the main buckets. And you'll kind of see that throughout all of on organic social, very similar things. To know that you're getting the most out of the supplements you take, you have to consider the other factors in your life because it could be that's just because you take Ladder protein doesn't mean you are going to gain muscle as quickly as you want to or lose fat or maintain your weight or beat your PR or set new goals with endurance. The outcome is defined by the individual and we just try to help people achieve that outcome in terms of pointing them where we see is the right direction in those different content buckets.


Felix: Got it. A product line like yours will certainly encourage repeat purchases, but do you do certain things to try to incentivize or move that further along to get repeat purchases from existing customers?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, I mean, for first subscribers, it's just making sure that they remain happy. I think for people who like to buy all a cart when it suits them, it's kind of giving them best practices in terms of using that product, sometimes showcasing other products that they might like. Those tend to work quite well. The hard thing with personalization is just not trying to over personalize if you don't have the data to do it. Everybody wants to have that perfect email that has everything you would expect a customer to want, but you also don't want to run into situations where someone gets an email in their inbox and it says, hi, first name or it's sharing content that's completely off topic.
So I think it's a constant state of improvement. We’re getting better at segmenting. We're getting better at personalizing. But it's something that we'll always continue to work on. Like I said, you're always getting more information about your customers directly or indirectly. And I think the goal is to try and use that in ways that are helpful because at the end of the day, you are your own customer. I get emails. I buy products from other brands. I shop at retailers. I shop online. I've shopped in-person. It's like you're exposed to a lot of the same tactics that you yourself are using. And so I think at the end of the day, the big thing we always ask ourself is how would I feel if I was the end user or the end consumer.


Felix: Make sense. Now, when you're developing new products, talk to us about that. How do you guys decide what's the next product to add to the product line?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's working with our suppliers, with our experts to figure out and then also with our customers to see what's happening at an industry level, what's happening at a macro level. Is there any new science or research that we can incorporate either into our existing products or into new products and what our consumers say? As I mentioned, product reviews, in-person interviews, where are the places that we can either make our products better or introduce new product variants or introduce new products altogether. I think that's kind of how we look at it. And then making sure that we have enough time to make the product fit with our quality standards because we're a sports nutrition brand and not a protein brand or a greens brand. We don't want to be known by one product, but rather the quality of all of our products. And so we try to stick to pretty strict standards there.


Felix: Got it. So once you start going down this process of product development, is there a kind of mini market testing going on? How do you determine if you are going in the right direction with any new products that you're releasing?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, we start internally in terms of taste testing and trying the product out in situation and then we'll usually expand it in terms of bringing in people within our network. And then from there, once they've kind of clears those hurdles, we'll open it up to more consumer testing and kind of use that feedback to inform what moves we make.


Felix: Got it. I guess, on a day-to-day basis or even just company wide strategy, how involved is LeBron and Arnold in the business?


Luke Droulez: It's a good question. I mean, they're very passionate about the business. We have either weekly or biweekly calls with people on their team. We're in the heart of the NBA season. So it's like LeBron's focused on winning a championship with the Lakers and we understand and appreciate that. As a Lakers fan, I'm excited for watching that quest. And so I think the good news is they're incredibly savvy. They care about the product. They've built businesses independently and together. And so it's like they're great sounding boards in terms of high level strategic decisions that we need to make. And in getting to work with their respective teams, we get a good insight into what they're looking for, what they want and making sure that as we continue to build the brand, they're happy with the direction that we're going in.


Felix: Yeah and speaking of working with LeBron and Arnold and you also mentioned you had brand ambassadors as well. For anyone out there that has a similar business model where they have brand ambassadors, what are some of the kinds of best ways to almost use them as sounding boards or as resources to give guidance or direction for a company?


Luke Droulez: Yeah. Good question. Well, I think it starts with making sure that your brand ambassadors like the product and the brand independent of any kind of sponsorship deal. I think we're really fortunate the people that we work with believe in the vision of the brand and again, use them. Similar to LeBron and Arnold, use the product on a daily basis. So it feels less of it like an endorsement or some kind of influencer play and more like a partnership. And we kind of think of it that way. It's like look for partners. Who are people that you want to still be working with at one year, two years, three years, four years.
And different brand ambassadors are going to have different size profiles at the time that you work with them. But think about it as a longer term through the lens of a longer term relationship. Who are the people that you think that you want to invest in their brand and they want to invest in yours. We've been fortunate to work with people like Alex Toussaint or Bec Wilcock, who are passionate about our success and we're passionate about theirs. And so it's a lot easier to do photo shoots or video shoots with them. Mike Mancias, LeBron's trainer has been huge brand advocate and hugely passionate about the brand and it just makes working with them that much easier.
Felix: Make sense. So let's talk a little bit about the website. Was this built in-house or did you hire an agency to build out the ladder.sport website?


Luke Droulez: Yeah, initially it was built by an agency, but increasingly we've brought those capabilities in-house.


Felix: It was because you wanted to make certain customizations or it can be more agile with the website?




Luke Droulez: Yeah, I think as with a lot of things that are brand centric, the people that represent your brand and generally, will tend to know more about the little like the ins and outs of it. And so we like the idea of bringing in our core competencies in-house. And so I think we're fortunate that our tech team is tiny, but mighty in terms of what they're able to do. And I think they do a good job of blending the art and the science when it comes to what our brand should look and feel like and then trying to use the data to figure out what are the next steps are.


Felix: That make sense. Have there been any changes or adjustments you've made to say recently during testing or anything they've had made a big impact on improving conversions?


Luke Droulez: I mean, I think the big ones where in some of the earlier days of my tenure in terms of thinking about what information needs to be on every level of the site. It's what information should be on the homepage? What information should be on PLPs or the product listing pages? What information should be on PDPs? The about page telling that origin story the right way. And then within the blog and it's thinking through how do these pieces fit together and then using the data from Google Analytics to figure out how are people navigating through the site where potential choke points and how are you going to address those potential choke points.


Felix: Make sense. So let's talk more about this. So when you mentioned, I think the most common kind of flow that a lot of listeners may have on the website is the homepage, their product listing page then the product description page. And you mentioned what kind information should be on each of those levels. Can you say more about that? What have you learned about what should or what shouldn't be on the homepage for example?


Luke Droulez: Well, yeah, the homepage is basically your storefront. So we like to think about it in terms of if you just heard about Ladder or maybe saw an ad or independent of how you got there, does the homepage allow you to get the high level information about what you need to know about the brand and then, in a lot of cases more importantly, direct you to where you need to go. And so I think that's been kind of a guiding principle in terms of how we design that specific page. For a lot of companies, your homepage is your most heavily trafficked landing page for marketing and so it's how are you going to design it accordingly.


Felix: Make sense. Now what about the product listing page, how do you decide what goes on there?


Luke Droulez: So it's like that's a level deeper I think. We're fortunate we have a pretty simple assortment and that's by design. There's so many thousands of products, maybe even hundreds of thousands of products in the supplement space on product aisles, whether it'd be digital or in-person, for us, simplicity was the key. So it was kind of showing what the products or product combinations were and then just giving enough information so that if you were to click on any of them, you know what to expect when you land on that product page.


Felix: Make sense. And then here on the product page, what kinds of things have you either add or remove from there that made a big difference?


Luke Droulez: I think just making sure that the product page had enough information to answer different levels of questions. At basic level, a product page needs to be like what is that product? How much does it cost? And then how can I purchase it? So for us, you can buy our product and multiple flavors in bags and in packets and you could subscribe or buy at one time. And so that's your base level. That's the most important information we need to communicate because that's the thing that will kind of narrow down a lot of purchase making decisions. And then from there, it's what answering relevant questions around, as I mentioned, certifications or flavor and taste or obviously, product reviews are really important for a lot of people just having those content blocks available.
And then for us, it's testing the ordering, it's testing the language within any given section. With everything, you can ask consumers and they'll give you a certain amount of information. But we also like to test things and kind of if we make certain decisions for consumer or if we change the way that they see it, does their exhibited behavior match what they say? What you're going to do, it's what you do and versus what you say you're going to do. And a lot of the testing that we do on our site is in relation to those two ideas.


Felix: Make sense. What about the apps that you use for the website? Are there any apps or tools that you rely on?


Luke Droulez: I think the one nice thing about working with Shopify is the app ecosystem is pretty robust. So over the life of the brand, there's been a lot of different apps that they've used and for different things. I think we've enjoyed working with Klaviyo for email. We use Privy for email capture. So that's created a nice loop in terms of that flywheel. Google Analytics is still really important for us for user behavior and for just seeing general site analytics. We use ReCharge for recurring orders. So those are kind of the workhorses. And then where we've seen fit, we've tried to customize things and build them in-house.


Felix: Awesome, so the website is ladder.sports and I leave it as last question. What are some of the kind of big goals that you want to achieve this year with a business?


Luke Droulez: I think, yeah, just getting more people to know about it and kind of helping more people in their health and fitness journey. I think this has been a very unique year and I think it's especially important within the company's original mandate to kind of deliver on that promise, whether or not they're sports, whether or not the way that you exercise or played or did exercise has changed. Ladder is here to support you with expert advice, premium products and kind of a community that's equally passionate about what they do.


Felix: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experience, Luke.


Luke Droulez: Thank you again for having me. It's been a pleasure.