Felix: Today we're joined by Isabel Aagaard from LastSwab. LastSwab is a reusable, sustainable sanitary alternative to cotton swabs and buds replacing at least 1,000 cotton swabs, and over the last seven months has generated over 1.3 million U.S. dollars and was started 2018 and based out of Denmark. Welcome Isabel.
Isabel: Hi. Thank you for having me on.
Felix: Yes. Where did the idea behind the sustainability focus business come from?
Isabel: We're three designers that a year ago were sitting and we'd done a lot of different designs throughout the years and we just really wanted to start focusing on different sustainable objects and things that we would use in our daily life. So it kind of emerged in this focus.
Isabel: And while we were researching, we found out that there was just this huge focus on single-use items that was coming up, but it hadn't really been put into light before now, and I think we were just very fascinated by the numbers and how we could design an object that could replace a single-use item would just make a huge difference for the environment.
Felix: Makes sense. You mentioned that you were three designers, then you guys have now focused on working on your own product. Did you have experience launching products in the past, or launching your own businesses, or were you a designer for someone else?
Isabel: Yes. We have all three done a lot of different designs throughout the years, but we've done mainly furniture design, and things for the kitchen, and more normal product. And I also worked in actually a medical industry where we were doing a lot of bags for chemo patients, and so it's a very different what we've done, but we've all been working with products throughout the years.
Felix: Got it. Makes sense. Now talk to us about this research process. You guys all three sat down and said, "Okay, we want to come up with a product and launch a business behind it," or what was the reason that you were embarking on doing this research?
Isabel: We were all working on different projects. The two other designers is my brother and his partner in crime. I think when we were just having lunch together in our office, we just kept talking about what we really wanted to design and what was really our passion in life. And this was, I think how this whole thought emerged.
Isabel: We then really wanted to dive in and figure out what can really make a difference because we didn't want to make something that was either greenwashed or something that didn't really live up to the expectations of what we wanted to solve. So we were really looking at what kind of problems do we have with our environment and the impact that we put on it. So this is how it emerged and kind of over the counter kind of talk.
Felix: Sure. I think a lot of people out there can relate where they have a passion, something they truly care about, but that might not be their main pursuit right now. But now they're thinking about pursuing it and turning that passion into something like a business, something they can earn a living from and focus 100% their time on.
Felix: You mentioned that you did research after recognizing that you all wanted to focus on sustainability and that was your passion. Now, what does that next step... What kind of research are you doing? What kind of answers are you looking for?
Isabel: We're looking at what really has like a negative huge impact on the environment and this is where single-use items in general came up. So we could just see that we could actually launch a collection of different things that would replace these single-use items. So this was like the main thought, like the big passion, the big purpose for us.
Isabel: And when we then went through the list, you could see straws, but this is also something that a lot of people have tackled, you see cutlery and a lot of of the different... toilet paper, very interesting items. And then the Q-tip just came, it was actually on the top 10 list and we were just very surprised because it's such a little item and how... Everything was created in an ocean of we want to get rid of single-use items in general with designing something alternative that can be reused. And the Q-tip was our first idea, we could see we could solve this issue.
Felix: So you recognized that there is a problem, I guess in the world with the single-use items. How did you know though that there was a market, that there were other people out that will be willing to buy a product like LastSwab's products in order to combat the single-use item issue?
Isabel: We started testing and this we did with the email collection. So we designed our product more or less finished and we knew not exactly what materials, but we were really long in the design process, but we had no idea that this was going to blow up or that this was going to be big. We tested it out by putting some money in some email marketing where we sent out, "Hey, do you know this is coming on Kickstarter? If you sign up now, then we'll give you even more discount."
Isabel: And then actually it was like two weeks into this campaign where we just saw how high the conversion rate was and we'd never done a product where this was so high. And the-
Felix: This is like your consumer focused product? I guess you mentioned that you also focused on furniture, but this was like the first, almost like, I guess more widespread consumer-focused products?
Isabel: I would more say it's our first sustainable product-
Felix: Okay.
Isabel: ... but we've done things for the kitchen. It is product-based I would say, but it's the first that have like where we put our passion into it and said like, "We really want to make a difference," or, "This really means something," and not, here's a salad bowl like everybody else also has a salad bowl. We also have one, so it had a deeper level of purpose.
Felix: Got it. Okay. Email collection was the first thing you did to validate whether there was any interest in this. Was it just like one landing page? Talk talks about this, I think this is a stage that a lot of people either skip or maybe are aware of but don't know exactly how to execute on this, to validate that market, that product market fit before diving any deeper. So talk to us about what does the email collection process look like?
Isabel: Yes, I think it's so crucial and we're going to do it with all our products, we are doing it with all our products because it's such an amazing way, a very cheap way to validate if this is at all an interest for people. But yes, it's a landing page that we A/B tested every single day.
Isabel: So every day I would put a new image up or a new text and then we would figure out when the day ended, which product picture, which text had done best. And I only changed one thing to really be able to track it. And this is how we slowly also could move our conversion rate up and we figured out how to actually explain this product, and we figured out how the imagery should be because we could see what people understood and what didn't work.
Isabel: And it wasn't about what we thought was nice. Actually, rarely it was the ones that we thought were nice pictures, for example that won that day. So we were constantly changing this. And then we had a marketing agency that helped us do Facebook campaigns mainly and a little bit of Instagram. And this is how we reached out.
Isabel: And they also A/B tested so they figure it out, so it was like, how can we get people interested in a little frame of image and if they click, how do we get them to sign up to this newsletter? So it was actually just growing this newsletter and in the meantime, try to figure out how we could communicate the product best.
Felix: Yes. So when someone else wants to do this and they are A/B testing the landing, there are obviously so many different things you can change. When you look back on the A/B testing you've done, what kind of levers, what kind of changes did you find made the biggest difference in a conversion rate increases?
Isabel: I think that we changed everything but color, how you signal everything and also being very concrete with your words. So when we did text where they were more, "We're just helping the world," or, "Cleaning the oceans." But when we got really specific to actually how this is a problem, how many cotton swabs end up in the ocean or end up on dump places, this was really where we got people engaged.
Isabel: So being very concrete with, this is actually your problem and going very quickly to, this as the solution. We ended up doing a banner where we did actually used the imagery, so was our product, which was the solution. And then you saw the problem and then you saw trash in ocean. So it was really like figuring out how to explain this very simple thing in words and in imagery.
Felix: I think this is important. I think anyone out there that is focused on big problems, like big changes that they are trying to make an impact on, it's easy to get caught up in your head and think about the grand vision that you have in your head and you're trying to explain that to just like a regular person that just wants to see how can they make an impact.
Felix: It will kind of fall on deaf ears if you talk about too big of a vision because they cannot see themselves have that kind of impact, but when you make it concrete and say, "If you buy this product, this is how you personally will contribute to fixing the problem." I think that's what you're getting at, making it concrete, bring it down to the level of your consumer, your user rather than talking about your necessarily like huge goal that are a little bit harder for them to wrap their heads around.
Felix: Now, you mentioned that the product was already pretty well designed, so you had a lot of photos of a pretty much finished product. How important is this, especially for someone out there that obviously doesn't have a team of three founders that are designers and they don't have that experience involve? Did you find that this was a big I guess, requirement to having a high converting landing page?
Isabel: We didn't actually have real photos until, I think after the Kickstarter. So everything was renders, everything was renders, so that means that we've drawn the products in a program on a computer and then we've got it's so well-made so that it actually looks real. So we'd put some shadows in there and we made it a little bit open, a little bit crooked so it didn't look not real, but actually none of the product pictures in the beginning were real.
Felix: Got it. Someone out there that doesn't have that experience can probably hire a designer to help them put pieces together or what are your thoughts on the best approach if someone out there wants to take the same approach of putting up a landing page to validate that product market fit but doesn't have the expertise of designing the product right off the bat?
Isabel: I would say, yes, of course you can find help. We use freelancers and Upwork a lot to try to tackle a lot of the well problems or the assignments that we're not good at or that takes us too long. I think designing of course is something that we really love and something that we want to be a part of, that process, but yes, you can find a lot of different amazing people out there that will do a lot of things for not that much money.
Felix: Got it. You mentioned that you had hired an agency to run a Facebook campaign and some Instagram ads as well. That was to drive traffic to the landing page to collect the emails?
Isabel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Felix: And was that the only I guess, method that you used to drive traffic or did you do anything organically that was more I guess, as a free approach or you focused mostly on paid traffic?
Isabel: No, we did a lot of different things actually. We started up because we had done a very sustainable product, so we started up getting into all the groups on Facebook that were talking about sustainability or zero waste. And we talked in those groups also while we were actually designing it to figure out how people use, and how they reuse things, and how we can meet the customers.
Isabel: But we also launched our product in there and told them what we were doing and published a lot of the pages would close it down because it was too salesy and this is a forum where we talk. But some of them heard and especially if somebody asks, "Oh, I really want to look to how I can improve things in my bathroom." Then you could comment on that post, "Oh, I saw this campaign, LastSwab," and then you could link it.
Isabel: And this was really effective actually because you really dove into a very concrete... a target group that was very well targeted to exactly the customer that we're looking for.
Felix: They had a real problem that they wanted to solve that was in front of them.
Isabel: Exactly, yes. And they were already into trying to... a lot of people are not very aware of how you can become sustainable or really want to dive into this, but these were really hardcore people that had changed their lives to better their impact on the environment. So it was an amazing group to actually also work with.
Isabel: So you could get your word out there, and then what we also did was we contacted I think 2,000 Instagram accounts that were also sustainable, but they were like micro influencers. So they had maybe 1,000 followers, 2,000 and to ask them like, "Hey, if you get a product, would you then want to share it and what do you think about it? And check it out, please give us feedback." So it didn't become too salesy. And this also generated a lot of interest and a lot of shares before we had even launched our Kickstarter.
Felix: Got it. Okay. Just to lay this out timeline-wise, so the email collecting that you were doing, you're both driving it paid traffic, but then you're also going to Facebook groups to drive people to check out that landing page or were you in Facebook groups only after the Kickstarter launched?
Isabel: Before.
Felix: Before. So during email question phase, you can still do the same approach that you guys took by going into Facebook groups and just commenting, contributing and then finding where it makes sense to drive people to check out that landing page.
Isabel: Exactly. Yes, because as soon as you have a landing page, you have enough information for anybody to get an overview of what is this, and then if they're interested, put in your email, if not. So it's very easy and there's an action. And this and this was crucial for us.
Felix: How do you position a product that doesn't exist yet on a landing page? How do you talk about in a way that validates that there's the man for it, but the product doesn't exist yet? Talk to us about how you talked about the product and then asked for an email address.
Isabel: We changed of course, this was also a change throughout the weeks on this page and constantly-
Felix: Maybe like a final version of it. What did that look like?
Isabel: The final version was like a banner which had the product, very product picture, and then it had a squid that was holding a Q-tip underwater. So it was looking at, well this is the solution and this is the problem. And then we went into depths to say that, you can have it in different colors, it's reusable, you just wash it with soap.
Isabel: And the third thing, what was that? It was the materials and what materials they were made of. So it was explaining the three most important things that you need to know when you at this product.
Felix: So the problem that you were solving, colors are different, the actual product itself that was the product that would exist, and then lastly what it was made out of?
Isabel: Yeah. I think the colors and what it was made out of actually ended up being in the same bracket, so it was single-use, this is a huge problem, this is the solution and it's really easy to clean. And this easy to clean was actually something that we didn't have there in the beginning, it was one of the things that we found that people were like, "Eew! What is this? I don't understand." And it was like, "Oh, you wash it." "Oh, oh, okay." So this-
Felix: It's funny.
Isabel: ... was something that came quite late. Yeah. It's kind of very funny.
Felix: That's funny because I've spoken to other sustainability folk is though a single-use, I guess products that combats single-use and that's like the most quickest objection that they have to address next. After product releases, the first question, the most common question I want to ask is, how do I clean this? Is so common that it's funny that you're bringing up to.
Felix: Now, what's that call to action then? Once you present the picture, the problem, the materials, explain a product, how you use it to clean it. Are you saying like, "Hey, put your email address to be notified."? What are you asking for on that page?
Isabel: We're asking for an email to get notified when we launch the Kickstarter campaign, and then with this pre-bird subscription, you will get the email first, so you'll get access to our pre-bird... I think you call it pre-bird, but a pre-bird offers. So that meant like-
Felix: The early access to the products.
Isabel: Exactly. And you have like maybe only a thousand products that are with this huge discount. And then when that's sold out, then you have one that's also a really good discount but not that good. This is just how Kickstarter is created or how they've laid it out. It's quite interesting also the whole crowdfunding industry and how they're creating all this stuff, but yes.
Felix: Okay. So some kind of urgency that if you don't take action now and add your email address in, then you might miss out on this discount, basically early access at a discounted rate if you don't take action today. Now, at what point did you all realize that, okay, this is now worth pursuing? Were you looking at an email address as conversion rates? What were you looking at to determine that this is something that is validated and let's continue pursuing it?
Isabel: We were looking at the conversion rate and then we're of course looking at the... which is also how many emails we got in. I think we ran for month, and after a month we had 40,000 subscribers and that's where we were like, "Wow, this is really-
Felix: That's a lot.
Isabel: ... this could get huge."
Felix: For someone out there that wants to take the same approach of getting emails, and then of course you can take that free approach that you talked about by going to Facebook groups, but if they want to go to 40,000 subscribers, you probably need to put some paid traffic in that too in order to do that in a month.
Felix: So to get the 40,000 subscribers, do you remember how much it costs in terms of driving that paid traffic to the landing page?
Isabel: Yes. We ended up paying a bit under but around 20,000 U.S. dollars.
Felix: So after you collected those 40,000 subscribers, what was the timeline? How long did you wait between the one month where you validated that this was worth pursuing and actually launching a Kickstarter campaign? How much time elapsed?
Isabel: While we were doing the email signups, we were also working on the Kickstarter campaign page, so we were doing everything simultaneously. I think only like two months from when started the whole email collection and then until we launched the Kickstarter about two months, but everything is very overlapping because we were working on so many things on the same time.
Felix: Got it. So once that campaign went live, you were just blasting or sending emails out to your email list of 40,000 subscribers to tell them to go check out the Kickstarter page?
Isabel: Exactly, yeah.
Felix: Got it. Now when you design a Kickstarter page, I'm sure you've had a lot of learnings from the landing page on how to talk about, what was important to include in there. Was there anything beyond what you included on the landing page that you made sure to include on the Kickstarter page that helped you raise, and we'll talk about the figures here. This was again, raised in a different currency, but in terms of U.S. dollars, over $700,000 was raised from, let's see, how many? Over 19,000 backers.
Felix: Talk to us about that, that's a huge accomplishment. Well talk about first that the page itself, but what did you include on that Kickstarter page that you felt like really resonated with the backers?
Isabel: It was really nice when we actually did, and we did this right up to the Kickstarter, but doing actual product pictures, this converted really well. And then just explaining the story from... we got a lot of insight that we didn't know about at all from our one pager that we tried to do the email collection with.
Isabel: So we took a lot of the things from there, so this overview that we talked about with the product, like the solution, the problem and then going directly to how can you use this in your daily life? Why a single-use is a problem? How is this a solution? And then we went into how it works, and then in depth like these are all the colors that we're doing, this is how it's reusable, this is why it's high quality. So we went much more into depths, but I think the main focus in the beginning was what is the problem? How is this solution?
Felix: And did you say that you also learned things from the backers that you didn't learn from the email collection phase about the product, about the messaging? What were some of the learnings there after the Kickstarter page went live?
Isabel: On Kickstarter you can't really A/B test anything, so the findings that we've gotten was of course to see other really successful Kickstarter campaigns and how they made the page, and how they rearranged everything. I think it worked really well, for example with gifts, images that are moving so you could see how it would like water and how it opened and closed and this is really successful on other campaigns.
Isabel: So this was something that we put on the Kickstarter that we didn't have on our email collection page.
Felix: Got it. Now, because you had the email list of 40,000 subscribers, how quickly did you break through your goal?
Isabel: 22 minutes.
Felix: Wow, that's amazing. And after that, I guess what was that curve like where... Was it most of the contributions came like on that first day or was it spread out through the entire campaign length?
Isabel: There was definitely a really, really huge spike in the beginning. And then it went down, but it was pretty steady. And then it spiked a little bit in the end. And I think this is very common. We saw in different statistics on different campaigns that this is... because you want to be the first and then you don't want to miss out. So you're right around those corners.
Felix: Got it. And was email the biggest factor or were you getting PR somewhere else? What was the biggest factor to continually drive attention to the Kickstarter page?
Isabel: Well, I think that it was really good. The spike of course was mainly the email collection, but we also got a lot of PR, and we got a lot of PR in different countries. So we could see the U.S... In Denmark, they picked it up quite quick because we're here, so we spiked quite quick in Denmark, and then the U.S. came, and then France came. And in the end we had a lot from Austria, so it was spread out from where we really got also mentioned in the media.
Felix: And did you pursue the PR or are they finding out about you through the early and quick success of the Kickstarter campaign?
Isabel: No, we definitely pursued the PR. We had a talk with Emma who did FinalStraw, which is also a product that is getting rid of straws... It's a reusable straw.
Felix: Yeah, we also featured them on the podcast? I don't think that episode's out yet, but excited to have you both on the podcast.
Isabel: Oh, okay. Oh, awesome. She had a huge success because of her... but she's amazing and she's amazing with PR. And she really had a lot of... she drew a lot of benefits from that angle and we wanted to... We didn't get as big of a success with it, but it did help us a lot.
Felix: Got it. Now, when you are pitching PR to publications, especially for again, a very sustainability-focused company, what is the story that you find resonates the most with the media in order to get your story picked up?
Isabel: I would say animals in the ocean choking on or dying from all of this plastic debris. I think that is something that everybody can resonate with, and it's so simple and it's inhumane, and just pointing on a lot of I think very deep feelings in people.
Felix: When you are creating messaging and marketing for a sustainability-focus customer, do they care about the same things or are there different kinds of marketing messages that seem to reach, again, a sustainability-focus customer better?
Isabel: It's so different and it's also what kind of group you want to get into. I would say the real hardcore sustainable target group is they want to have facts. They want to figure out like, where is this produced? How is this better? Why are you trying to sell me this? They're very hardcore where I think a larger group, which is more just they want to be part of doing something good. They are more aimed at maybe a squid with a Q-tip wrapped around it where you can also, we're also digging into a huge group of people, even huge.
Isabel: I think it's 90% of, but that they want something that's nice, and something that's maybe fashionable, and something that they're going to use. So I think you have degrees on how sustainable you are and how easy this product also has to be to use. And this is also why we did a lot of different colors. We wanted really to have this become something personal, becomes something that you want to carry with you and that it can mark who you are, but it's also just a really convenient and nice object.
Felix: And because your marketing needs to be so different in these different customer groups, like you're saying the people that are very much into this like I guess, more extreme and you not only have to change your marketing, but you almost potentially have to change your supply chain and your product just to address these valid concerns that they have.
Felix: The question I think that comes up for a lot people is, is it worth addressing a certain target market more than others, especially if the mass market could potentially be easier to convince, I guess to make a purchase and as obviously a larger market? How do you know where or when to target the customer basis?
Isabel: I think it's very different. I think there are some things that make sense. There are some visions that you have for your company and your product and what you want to do with it, so I think that this should just be kind of the backbone of what you are, and what you stand for, and what your product then stands for.
Isabel: So there are some things, so for example our product is made of plastic, the boxes are corn based plastic, but this is something that a lot of eco people would not, they're like, "Why is it not bamboo? Why is it not this and this?" So in that sense, it's very different to target somebody if they think that your product should be different, and that's where I think that you should just have a vision and know what you do and have the right, I know why it is more sustainable in plastic than in bamboo because bamboo is not something that we could make it.
Isabel: It's not something that would be sanitary or sustainable in any way. But this is a hard story to tell, so I think that you have to tell your story in many ways and you have to figure out how you want to explain this and how in depth you want to go with people. But bottom line, you've made some decisions and your target or what you want to pursue with your product is up to you.
Felix: Just sounds like a very delicate balancing act to determine what is actually sustainable for your cause, but then also what's sustainable for the business. If you are trying to just make progress in this because it's probably better for you to exist as a company than to try to solve every single problem, but then potentially not be around anymore because so focused on solving all of these little problems that might eat away at margins and all of a sudden you don't have a business anymore.
Felix: So I think that's something to keep in mind when you're trying to balance what you should focus on.
Isabel: Exactly.
Felix: So after this Kickstarter campaign, what was the next? What did you guys focus your attention on after the campaign has such amazing success of again raising over 700,000 U.S. dollars?
Isabel: After the Kickstarter, we moved directly to Indiegogo, which is also similar to Kickstarter, so it's also a pre order platform and we raised more or less the same amount. And then we moved from there directly to WebShop.
Felix: Interesting. You did a Kickstarter and then you're talking about how soon after that ended did you move over to Indiegogo?
Isabel: Days.
Felix: And this was obviously strategic from the very beginning, right? That you decide, okay, let's do the Kickstarter and then once that ends, let's launch on Indiegogo?
Isabel: Exactly. Yes because you can't go the other way if you do on Indiegogo, Kickstarter won't allow you to do a Kickstarter. So-
Felix: Interesting. Okay.
Isabel: ... it's very, yeah.
Felix: Obviously there was a lot of hype and attention because again, of the success of the Kickstarter campaign, all the media coverage. How do you make sure that that carries on as you go over to Indiegogo? And obviously, what you did worked because again, you raised the same amount of money on Indiegogo. How do you make sure you transition that media buzz over?
Isabel: You do a link where you say, "We're now live on Indiegogo but we're finished on this campaign." And then we redirected... The landing page that we were talking about in the beginning also changed throughout the months, so when we were on Kickstarter, there was a direct link to Kickstarter, and when we were all on Indiegogo, it was there.
Isabel: And then when we were on the website, that page was now a website. So everything when you Google LastSwab, you'll come to our landing page that we had throughout the whole before campaign, after campaign.
Felix: Got it. So you try to focus the tension only to... a funnel basically into one direction rather than have all these different properties that are doing different things. You try to drive everyone to the similar, I guess page... not similar but the same page so that you don't have to worry about all of these different things are going on in your business?
Isabel: Exactly. Yes.
Felix: Which leads me to something that you mentioned previously, which is that you attribute a lot of your success to also be able to create simple and effective structure and automated processes to help run the business. So talk to us about this. What are some of the things that you've been able to simplify with the business?
Isabel: In the beginning we started to simplify everything about drop shipping. We needed to be able to supply this huge demand, but we also needed to make sure that it was eco-friendly and that it made sense. So we ended up doing three different locations for drop shipping, so one in the U.S., one in Europe, and one in China.
Isabel: And this is a system that is integrated directly into Shopify so that we could follow how much do we have in stock in the different warehouses? Where is it low? Where is it high? And when we had a new shipment from our factories, then we could divide this over the three drop shipping agencies.
Felix: Just to be super, super clear. I think drop shipping to a lot of people out there listening means something a little bit different than it sounds like what you're getting at.
Isabel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Felix: You're talking about distribution centers that you have in these different cities or countries and then you ship in bulk the products that you've manufactured to these places so that you can then ship from the distribution center to the local geography?
Isabel: Yes, exactly.
Felix: Okay, got you. Okay. That makes sense. These are your products that you guys are creating, you're not like sourcing them from different places. You are creating them, one manufacturer or maybe multiple, but then shipping them to centralized locations in different parts of the world?
Isabel: Yes, exactly.
Felix: Okay, cool. Just want to clarify that. All right. That makes sense to simplify the shipping, Based on the entrepreneurs that maybe you've seen or spoken to, what are some things that you find that other entrepreneurs might over-complicate that you think that they can try to simplify and make their life easier?
Isabel: I think we have very early in the process found out or we have a wish that we don't want to be a huge company with a lot of employees because we've been in a lot of companies with a lot of employees where everything gets just complicated. And from one to the other, it's just the job and of course I understand that there is a lot of work in creating a company in general.
Isabel: But I feel like by employing a lot of different people to tackle problems is not the way to simplify a really lean company. So what we've done is that we work with a lot of different freelancers and this takes of course a lot of time and dedication, but I think it's just a really amazing way for us to have control over everything that we're doing in the company and we're taking everything up through a funnel that my brother created, which is do we have to do this?
Isabel: And then if it's yes or no, then okay, can we get someone else to do it freelance based? Yes or no? Is it expensive? So it's like going through and it's like the last resort is to actually hire somebody. Because it's a lot of work to have people on board and to make sure that you're being productive and you're actually creating what you want to create in a sense in your company.
Isabel: So I think that this is what has also challenged us a lot because we are only three people and we do have to be very aware of everything that's going on because it's starting to really become a really huge company, but we need to be able to delegate everything that we do to freelancers.
Felix: I think like most entrepreneurs, again, you mentioned hiring is probably the last thing you want to do because there's overhead with that. And you might probably prefer solve problems with technology, so let's talk about the website a bit. What has been the most important part or important page of the website in terms of getting conversions on your site?
Isabel: I think that of course the front image is always very important. What do you want to show and what is the most important thing you want to explain people? And then we have in our new website built in the shop in the page, so if you go in and you look LastSwab, you can change through the colors, but you're still in the front page. So everything seems more seamless in a way. So I think this was very important for our shop to have this built in.
Felix: Now, you mentioned you use a couple apps, one is Shogun, which is used a lot for creating landing pages and different layouts. Talk to us about how you've used that for your marketing or just driving traffic.
Isabel: Yes, we use that in the beginning. We actually just deleted it. We're not using it anymore, but we did use it in the beginning and it was a really good way of starting up to get the different pages. I think the shop in itself was just... it was too hard to get what we wanted. So now we're using a theme so we could get everything built into one pagers in a sense.
Felix: That makes sense. Now when this episode goes live, I see you on the top navigation bar that you guys have another Kickstarter campaign coming up for LastTissue, so excited to see where that leads, but it sounds like you are looking for ways to expand the product line to tackle more single-use problems. Now, how do you think about what product to focus on next as you're expanding your catalog?
Isabel: Yes. In the beginning, we did a whole list of things that we wanted to tackle and we started off with LastSwab, but LastTissue was always going to be the second one. I think the next line of products will be tackling the bathroom because we feel like this is also where we gotten into a lot of chains and a lot of bigger stores that are more focused to the bathroom. So we're definitely tackling that area in the beginning.
Felix: Awesome. So I'm looking forward to. If anyone that wants to follow along the product we've talked about is called LastSwab, go to lastobject.com to see LastSwab and all the other new products that are coming out.
Felix: Thank you so much for your time, Isabel.
Isabel: Thank you.