Felix: Today I'm joined by Ryder Carroll from the Bullet Journal. The Bullet Journal is an analog system for their digital age that lets you track the past, organize the present, plan your future. It was started in 2013 and based out of Brooklyn, New York. Welcome Ryder.

Ryder: Thanks for having me.

Felix: Yes, so before the business or the products that you released, it all started with a method and we can't... It's hard to explain it for audio, so definitely go to bulletjournal.com to see and learn how it all works, but before we get, before anyone goes and checks that out, let's talk about why did you come up with this method? Like what was your situation? Why did you decide to come up with this method of your own?

Ryder: Well, it was never designed to be a method originally. I grew up with pretty bad ADHD and at the time, there weren't a lot of tools available to me. The only platform that I had available was a paper notebook. So over the years, I started designing custom ways for me to become more focused and organized and productive, and I would try many, many different things and every once in a while something actually worked, and over the years I started compiling all of these different techniques into something that became a system. And then eventually as I became a product designer and a graphic designer, I started incorporating a lot of that thinking into the way that I organize my own life. And then in 2013, I shared what I had learned with the public as Bullet Journal.

Felix: Awesome. So when you decided to turn this into a product, what was going through your head at the time. You were already using the system for yourself. You already had a system and your own tools that you're using. What made you take that step towards turning it into a product?

Ryder: That's funny. I never really intended it to be a product. The bullet journal method is just that; it's a methodology, it isn't a product. It was more of a project. It was a way for me to give back to the online community that had shared so much of their learning with me over the years. When I started designing digital products and sites, it was kind of the wild West and a lot of people just shared whatever they learned for free. And I found that immensely helpful because there weren't a lot of resources available. So when I had the time, I was like, what project could I create that would give back in some way? And I was like, what is unique to me that would help other people? And I was like, well I take notes in a pretty unique way. So why don't I share that with people?

Ryder: Because no matter where I worked, in what agency; designers, product managers, accountants, even developers, all carried around a little black notebook. So in 2013, I just shared the different concepts of organization that you can use; any notebook you want. And then over a year, I just took a step back from the project and watched these communities start to develop. And in 2014, I decided to create a website that was targeted towards the users, so actually leveraging the best content that they were creating because they started creating all these different ways of using my methodology that I hadn't thought of yet because I just have a different life from theirs.

Ryder: And I thought that was wonderful. So I created a Kickstarter campaign that was focused on servicing the best of the community content. And as a backer reward, I thought it would be really cool to have a notebook that was custom designed for bullet journaling; just tiny little details that made the whole thing a little bit simpler. And it was designed to be a limited release backer reward. And when I launched the actual Kickstarter, that limited release sold out immediately. And then people start asked me like, why are you creating a limited edition notebook? It should be unlimited, and they were right. So I went back to my partner and I was like, can we just create a altered version of this; that's unlimited? And they said, sure, of course. And that's when I actually became a business. So that was the first product that I started selling.

Felix: Got it. So I want to take it back to again 2014 where you mentioned how you were leveraging the content that the community was already created. Can you talk more about that? Like what do you mean by what was the kind of content that a community was creating?

Ryder: Well, when I designed these different techniques, I designed them for the way that my mind works, and my mind usually works in very different ways. So I don't always capture all images. I don't capture thought necessarily the same way every time. Sometimes I use long form journaling. Sometimes I use bulleted lists, sometimes I use images. So the system is designed to be very flexible.

Ryder: But when that flexibility went out into the world, people were able to map on the methodology and take it to places that I could've never imagined. Like I'm never going to be a doctor. I'm never going to be a mother. And yet people with these used cases started sharing their own experience with how this methodology could be targeted towards those very specific needs. So they were able to imbue a license and a methodology and a functionality; multiple functionalities I could've never been aware of, and I figured that I would like to make sure that other people have access to that knowledge.

Ryder: The wonderful thing about bullet journal from long at the very beginning was that people were sharing all sorts of different scenarios that I'd never thought of. They were using this tool that I had designed for use cases that I couldn't imagine. The problem is with anything that kind of goes viral online, there's just way too many resources all over the place and they're easily missed. So I figured the best contribution I could make to the community is to start curate the best content, really people who really understand what I was teaching and were able to adapt it into a form that I may not have considered beforehand. So that was really what I was trying to do; curating a lot of those content; making sure that the best content surfaced and the people had access to different minds other than my own.

Felix: Got it. So that must have been like super rewarding, right? You create something and all of a sudden the world takes it in and adopts and it kind of uses it in their own use case. Again, you mentioned that you never thought of. Now were you actively promoting and pushing this methodology to get it to spread some more? How did it kind of... before the product came along, before Kickstarter came along, how was it spreading?

Ryder: Mostly, word of mouth. I mean the idea is that I released something that solved a real, actually solved a whole bunch of different challenges for me and then it went on to solve a bunch of different challenges for other people. So people started sharing that with each other and I figured the best way that I could promote this was to promote other solutions that people were coming up with. For me, it's always about the idea of the bullet journal method. So it was very untraditional in the way that I try to, I mean, I didn't even try to market it. I just tried to help other people as much as I could. And that in itself turned out to be a way of marketing it, but that wasn't the intention.

Felix: Got it. Now when you mentioned you are showcasing the different use cases for it. How do you, I think other people might have this challenge too where they might have like a methodology or a philosophy that then is kind of supercharged by the product that they've created but they first have to almost get buy in or at least teach the methodology first. So when you were showcasing these methods, like how do you educate the user and eventually the customer on the methodology before they even think about buying a product?

Ryder: Well for me, the product was always and continues to be secondary. The actual methodology is primary and that's free. And that is the first thing that I focused on. I focused on teaching people how they can use it in their own lives. And then when people started using it for use cases that I wasn't aware of, I focused on highlighting their thoughts on this. So it was always about finding the best possible solutions, either my own or the community and I think people appreciated the fact that they had access to this information because you can use any product you want, but when they buy into a product or service, I think it's because it actually adds value to their life. So I try to focus on things that create real genuine value to my community and once that happens, I feel like they're more likely to trust you in terms of buying your product.

Ryder: So I think if I focused on just promoting my product and put the methodology second, as a consumer myself, I wouldn't be as compelled to support that company, but when the service comes first and the real solutions are offered first and then you have the products to support those things; that's something that makes more sense to me.

Felix: Right, because...like you mentioned earlier, the methodology can be applied to any notebook, but of course the Bullet Journal makes a lot easier to apply the methodology but because you are giving that value and that service first for free, they are much more willing to support it. And then of course, if they are, again, they're bought into this system, they want to find the, not the original source but like the method, the product that was built around that methodology.

Felix: So I think there is a science to teaching these use cases like because like you're saying, I think the benefit of it, also the challenge of a product like yours is that it can apply to so many different use cases. Now how, what is, I guess, what has helped you to explain the method for anyone else out there that might have a product that requires explanation, like visually and like actually for the customer to invest their time into learning it. What has helped you to explain the method?

Ryder: Well the first thing is trying to focus my explanation based on audience, right. So I can talk to four different people with four different set of needs and for each one of those people, I will talk about it differently because the challenge with what I do is essentially I show people how to use a blank notebook and then people have this fear of the blank page. When I say it can be anything you need it to be; for some people that's helpful, for some people that immediately makes them stop.

Ryder: So what I try to do is put myself into their situation as best I can and now that I've spent the better part of six years listening to my community, understanding how they use the methodology, I can focus the story and the feature set based on their actual needs. I think it's really important for people to be able to see whatever tool or product that you're using, playing a real life, playing a real role in their lives to actually provide valuable value in a way that makes sense to them. Because a lot of times, there are a lot of promises made that people may buy into, but it doesn't really resonate over time because it's not solving a need based on their lived experience. Once I understand what it is that they're trying to get out of it, then I try to tailor a message that makes more sense to them.

Felix: So is the product, the planner itself, is that product always evolving?

Ryder: Yes.

Felix: Got it. Now, how do you know what features to add next so that it doesn't, so it still remains kind of flexible to all these use cases but then still captures new uses cases that you guys come across?

Ryder: It's about paying very close attention to what challenges the user has. So if I start identifying very specific patterns, then the next generation of the product, I can start feeding that in. It's not about taking every single piece of feedback. In my own case, it's about finding trends of feedback or patterns in feedback. So there are a lot of people that focus on this one challenge or this one aspect. So for me, the pipeline is very much based on addressing that concern and over time that's led to me tailoring both the brand as well as the product to align with the real needs of the community. So rather than having to guess, I let them tell me what's not working and what is, and then focus on clarifying the things that need clarification and refine the things that are working.

Felix: Got it. Now let's talk about the Kickstarter campaign because that was... It sounded like that was the beginning of turning this thing or at least the beginning of setting the stage for what will become the business and become the product that you would sell. Now you mentioned that you first started off with a limited edition, a planner, which then evolved into a, I guess a more evergreen product that you are creating. Now, when you talk about this limited edition one, did you feel like that actually helped at least drive new attention, new audiences to check out the planner to begin with? Would you have done that again? Go with limited edition first?

Ryder: I don't think I would've done a limited edition. I'm glad that I did that because those that are really committed to bullet journalaling now have a very special item that's just for them. And I feel like there's a real...there's something really important in that. They bought into an idea and they were part of an experience and I think that that's something that they'll cherish. I've met people who have never opened that notebook just because it's like this memory for them. In some ways, that was the very beginning of bullet journaling, becoming what it has become. At the same time, however, I feel like I learned a lot about the needs of my communities through that Kickstarter; the things that they really want and the things that they want more of and products are definitely something that they get a lot of value from if they're done intentionally and if they're done in a way that really respects the challenges that they're trying to overcome.

Ryder: So that's basically what I tried to do in the development of all products. And that's also how we ended up designing the Bullet Journal Companion App. That was something that came up from a lot of feedback. For example, it's like, I keep forgetting to check in with my notebook. In bullet journaling, we have this thing called daily reflection where you check in in the morning and the evening texture review the things that you wrote down, and people would just forget to do that.

Ryder: So I started designing this idea of a companion app that wouldn't replace a notebook but would be an extension of it and be able to leverage the technology that isn't available in the analog format. So for example, sends you reminders. It also tracks how often that you check in with something and it also gives people completely updated information that's not possible with some kind of print media, for example.

Ryder: As I get better at teaching this, I try to refine all the information that I'm providing to the community and having a digital app that allows me to just flip the switch and then all of a sudden all the content is up to date. That's something that was really helpful and that continues to lead the evolution of the digital product, but that's why it exists. People are like, I forget or what happens if I'm not around my notebook and I have thoughts.

Ryder: Again, another feature inside the digital app that allows you to capture your thoughts, but it does so with a condition. Like for me, a big problem with digital apps especially ones that had to do with functionality is that I just end up having to do lists in these apps and I didn't want to replicate that same problem with the own products that I created. So in the bullet journal companion app, you can capture your thoughts, but they expire after 72 hours. The idea is that you write them down in your app and then put them back into your notebook and that way it facilitates the methodology much more effectively.

Felix: Now you mentioned how you are very intentional. You have to be intentional with the products you release with the updates, you make sure the product. Is there a question that you'd like to ask yourself or you'd like to answer when you are making these product decisions? Like how do you make sure that you are being intentional with the decisions that you make when it comes to your products?

Ryder: I think the question at the base of everything that I do right now is like how will this help? What problem is this solving? Those are the things that I really try to focus on. I don't really go after aspirational ideas. There might be aspirational solutions, but it always starts off with a real, a really carefully defined problem that I'm trying to solve.

Felix: So it's not like a real problem [crosstalk 00:16:59]. So it's not like a real problem that you're- Okay, basically you're not like looking for a...you're not hunting for problems to solve, like you're looking for with things that are, problems or challenges that are in your face?

Ryder: Yeah, I don't look for solutions that require a challenge. That makes sense.

Felix: Definitely makes sense. I think it's definitely worth repeating because sometimes you get aspirational like you mentioned and you just kind of started thinking about the future too far ahead where that problem might never ever come up or it might be so far down the line that you may never get to it unless you saw the problems in your face today. Now let's talk about the Kickstarter success.

Felix: So you launched this Kickstarter campaign and just to kind of recap, you had a goal of $10,000 and blew past that with almost $80,000 raise and a $2,888 backer. So tons of backers blew through there through your goal. What was the original goal of this campaign? What did you want to do if it succeeded, before you, obviously you knew it succeeded, but what was your original goal when you started this campaign?

Ryder: There were a couple of different goals that I had with that. One is I wanted to gauge interest whether or not people, even one of the new website, this was going to take up a good amount of my time and I didn't want to invest that time into something if nobody's going to care because at the end of the day, I had already released everything for free. Like this is how you do and here's a tutorial. And that had been working really well.

Ryder: So I didn't know if there was going to be any added value of me creating a new site. So I wanted to gauge interest in that way and obviously the amount that I put there was the amount it would take for me to take time off and actually build this thing. So the Kickstarter was there to gauge interest for this new part, the new, the next step of bullet journaling and then also to create this product that again was only going to be limited.

Ryder: But I was also interested to see how people would respond to having the product and the responses more overwhelming than I had anticipated, which was a happy accident, but again, the first thing was solving the main challenge and that challenge was that a lot of great content was getting lost online and that I was the only source of information for bullet journaling. And I wanted to make sure that people who had thought about this intensely also had a platform. So providing a platform for a growing community; that was where the real intention of the Kickstarter; to gauge interest to see whether or not this is something that would be worth both my time and their time.

Felix: Got it. So the main goal was to build or to build or expand or improve the website to be the centralized resource for the bullet journaling methodology and also to see through the offer of these rewards is to see if anybody wanted this product, which again, at that time was limited. And you mentioned that you learned things though from your customers about the product; about the potential notebook that will come out. What were some things that you learned from the Kickstarter campaign?

Ryder: Well, I mean a lot of the things that I learned from the Kickstarter campaign also dealt with logistics, like where people were coming from and what features they would and would not need. For example, like I had an idea in my mind and luckily a lot of those ideas came from all the feedback that I had gotten the year previously. So by and large the first version of the notebook was pretty well aligned with community expectations and needs. So that was validating. I guess I learned. I was very validated during the Kickstarter that I had made the right choices for the features that I had added and the features that I did not add as well. That's a really important thing. I try not to add features for features sake. I want to make sure that everything makes sense for the most amount of people.

Ryder: So that's one main part. The product itself was validated, but then the second part, and I think the one that I didn't expect was the complications of actually running a Kickstarter campaign and also managing expectations for shipping and things like that. Like things you just don't really know about until you're dealing with that, right. People want to know exactly where the product is in the pipeline and what challenges you face and that kind of thing. So learning how to communicate with my audience was really an exceptionally important part of that process.

Felix: Got it. Now I think there are lots of you out there that maybe are selling digital products. I think it's more where this is most likely to happen, which is that they're afraid to give away too much content, too much of the system and for fear of losing out on those sales, losing out on customers. Your approach was that you already spoke, you already taught the methodology, you already mentioned that you can do this for free on any piece of paper on and any notebook, you don't have to buy a product. You kind of emphasized this right? Now, I guess, why do you feel that people still were willing to buy a product even though you told them how they can do this without paying anything for it?

Ryder: Well, there's just a couple things there. One is the bullet journal method is comprised of two parts. There's the system and the practice. The practice is a lot more philosophical approach to figuring out why you're doing what you're doing. When I released the Bullet Journal, I focused on the system. It was part of a larger methodology. So over time, as people have found it helpful, I have released more content and created more products around the full methodology, but I think that was really important to me to give people something that would immediately add value to their lives in a meaningful way and continue to support that. So when you create content that does connect with an audience, there will be questions, there will be a lot of questions and you can create a lot of content based on refining both the original content but also addressing all these questions that people have.

Ryder: So content begets content begets content, if that makes sense. And also over time you, by listening to your community, you can start to create new content that addresses challenges that come up over time. Like a big part of the bullet journal method is designed to evolve and part of that evolution is based on the feedback that I get from my community as well as my own experience. The more I learn about this, the more I keep practicing it, the more I can continue to share. So I feel like giving away content that is useful is really important because you're immediately relevant to your community's life in some way because you're providing a valuable service. Without you, that wouldn't be there. So once you start that pattern, it's like you give first and then you ask second. Yes, it would be the way that I would put it.

Felix: Right, so you're creating content that solves a problem, but in or by solving that problem, people will have other specific use cases where they want to take that next step, which can, like you mentioned, beget more content. When you talk about content, that could be free content or it could exist in a form of a pro...like a pay product. Is that the correct interpretation?

Ryder: Yes. I feel like the core, at least with bullet journal, the core is always going to be for free, right? You can go to bulletjournal.com and you can learn all about the basics for free and then in time there are different products that can add more like features that are added on top of that core that are available for premium and it works without it, but it becomes deeper and provide value only to those that really are interested in it. You can use it without any of the paid content and will always remain the same. But if there's a very specific use case that you need, here's a solution or there's a solution. Like the app; the app isn't free.

Felix: Got it. So for anyone out there that is fearing giving away too much because they're worried that they might be losing on a customer, what you found, at least in your particular business, is that you can always go deeper. Your customer can always go deeper and need a more specialized or more advanced content from you, which again can exist in the form of a paid product. So that, in your case, that fear of giving away too much content does not exist?

Ryder: Not really. I'm sure there's some use cases where, like for example, I recently published a book, like I wouldn't give that away for free, right. There's incredible amount of work that it went into that, but that book came as a result from me listening to my community. They had all these questions that I wasn't answering and I felt that the best possible way that I could do that is by creating another product that would address all these different concerns as best as they could at the time.

Ryder: And plus you begin to learn, so the content that you're giving away will age even if it's mostly evergreen as you learn more and as you learn more in your own use case or like in your own experience with the product as well as the feedback from the community, there will always be new content that is needed and then it's a way of also packaging that content.

Ryder: If you put out a lot of content, sometimes the challenge there is for people to find the content or to kind of link it up; to make it seem more seamless; to have a thorough line of all that content and those are products that you can create in addition. So yeah, it's all free, but you can also, for example, get an ebook that covers this topic that we've covered over the last three years, but it's streamlined and repackaged to be significantly more effective.

Felix: Got it. Now on the other end of the spectrum are people out there that are fearful of or at least hesitant to monetize their content, whether that is again sold as a product, an app or a book, which you've touched on all of these three kind of channels in your business and people just aren't comf... Some people out there might not be comfortable with charging, especially creatives or creators and artists might not be as comfortable with charging, maybe not charging with their worth. Have you ever gotten hung up on this idea of be hesitant to charge for your work?

Ryder: All the time. All the time and of course it's a hard debate and especially given that Bullet Journal was founded on the idea of like the core is free, right? I give you something, I get to give you a lot for nothing, but at the same time, the way I view it is this, in order to keep creating, I need to be able to run my company. If this is providing value to people, the only way I can do that is by charging for various different things and by charging, I get to continue to serve them. That is the agreement. That is the way that I always come back to it. That's why I always start with what problem is this solving? How will this help? As long as I continue to stick to those edicts, I feel like charging becomes less challenging, if that makes sense.

Felix: Right. So you obviously have a way to talk yourself, I guess, a way out of not charging. Now, do you ever have to actually explain yourself to any potential customers that come around and say, why are you charging for this? Have you had that experience?

Ryder: Sure, absolutely. And sometimes it's a valid question and other times, it's hostile and you kind of go by a case by case basis. It's a really great opportunity to deepen the relationship with community members in some circumstances and also to learn. And I feel like it's an answer that isn't black or white. You figure out what to answer, what not to answer, what to charge for and what not to charge for. Your community and your customers will let you know. They certainly will.

Felix: Got it. Okay, so now the Kickstarter campaign has launched successfully. People are asking you why can't we buy more of these things? Why is there a limited edition of it? What was the next step? What was the next step to saying, wow, this has been validated, that the journal itself, the physical product has been validated. What was the next step to taking this beyond the Kickstarter campaign?

Ryder: To fulfill orders; that was the next part, right. I didn't have a team, it was just me. I had partnered with another company to actually produce it, but like production is only one step in a very complicated process of getting something from your computer into a factory, onto a boat, into a home. There are so many different parts of logistics and I have, at the time, I had absolutely no experience with logistics. So three to four months of my life was just taken and upto figuring out how to make sure that these books got into the hands of the backers. I had pipelines in place, but you have all these plans until all of a sudden, reality sets in. So it was a matter of just figuring out-

Felix: Sorry, I was just saying, speaking of logistics, like what were some parts that either surprised you or caught you off guard that you didn't realize, I have to actually know how to do this, or I have to hire someone to do this? Like what were some parts of the logistics piece that might catch new Kickstarter campaign creators or just new folks that are developing a product might run into?

Ryder: Well, I've always felt that the, I'd assume that the hardest part of the Kickstarter was running the actual campaign from beginning to end, but then after the final day, things would settle down. In my own experience, I found the opposite to be true. It's once the Kickstarter ended that things really started getting really intense. And I wish, and I suggest greatly to anybody thinking about doing this, to have a team around you because there's so many different components of this.

Ryder: Not only are you dealing with the production of a new product, but you're also now engaging with your community in a completely different way. And those are two full time jobs on their own, right. So that was a mistake on my end. I had bit off more than I could chew. I managed it. I was able to do it, but I, it was a very unpleasant experience because how much of the information in the pipeline do you share with your community?

Ryder: On the one hand, they have a right to know about what's going on, about this product they just invested in. On the other hand, you want content that's engaging and interesting and being like, the ink was too dark on the last sample, so it's going to take another couple of weeks for us to get another thing and then the next sample comes and the ink is too light. That's a hard conversation to have on an ongoing basis over months.

Ryder: And I had created physical products before but they were local and in this case the products were not produced locally. So there's all sorts of different technicalities that I hadn't really considered before that would take more time than anticipated. So I, for example, put a deadline or... I gave the community a date as to when they could start expecting to receive the notebooks. And I missed that day for about two months, which by Kickstarter standards is not that bad.

Ryder: But those two months were very intense because people didn't understand like, am I going to get this product? When am I going to get this product? Why is it being delayed? And I wish that I had been more transparent, but honestly, half the time I was just waiting for information or something would be sitting at a port or something would be in transit. So just balancing all of these different considerations at all times is something that really requires a team. I mean at the end of the day everything turned out just fine and people were really happy to receive their notebooks. But from the time the Kickstarter ended to the time that notebook showed up on the door, there's a lot of work to be done, especially if this is your first product.

Felix: So if you were to do it- [crosstalk 00:33:58]. So if you were to do it again, like what do you find is like that right communication balance? Whether, again it is fulfilling on a Kickstarter campaign or just launching a new product off of your site and people might be pre-ordering, you're like, what is that right level of communication; that balance that you think is, you would I guess strive for next time around or if you were to do it again?

Ryder: If I were to do it again, I would say the first piece of advice that I'd give people is like whatever you think your deadline is for delivery, times it by three. You're creating your own deadline, right. I took a number based on the estimates that I received, but there was no need to actually stake that claim. I should have given myself four extra months because nobody's going to be upset to get their product early, but people are going to be very upset if they get their product even a week late. So the first thing is about just giving yourself a much larger deadlines or at least giving yourself publicly much larger deadlines. I think that would be helpful because then a lot of the communication would just not be necessary.

Ryder: So that's the first one and I think that the next time, I feel like I would let people in a little bit more on the frustration that I was experiencing on this really steep learning curve. I think that that way, they would have been more engaged with my story and they not only know that I too am frustrated, but also, and more importantly, I am making progress; solutions are happening and that sometimes you just have to wait, especially with physical products, things are made, things are shipped, things are in transit. We just have to wait because a lot of times people have no concept of what's happening in the process, right.

Ryder: And when you share part of that, people become aware of it. So rather than them just knowing it's not here yet, like it's not here yet because, and this is happening as well. There's more, right? There's momentum. It's not just the, it's not here yet. So I feel like it's a way for you to pull people into your own experience, which makes them more invested in the product as well. It's like, I remember how this thing got made and then there was this and there was that thing. They're part of the experience.

Felix: Right, so given the reason why things are happening the way they are and share that frustration, the emotion that you're facing because, again, everyday they want to know that there's another human at the end of this and not just a cold company that is giving them a delay without any reason and without any share frustration. Now you... During this fulfillment process, what were the bottlenecks? What are certain things that you would tell other people to look out for during the fulfillment process that maybe took longer than you had expected?

Ryder: Well, for example, when you create something new, you have to build on a lot of time for getting the samples right. I mean for me the most important part wasn't just getting a notebook out, but getting a notebook that I would want to use; write something as a person who's used this product or variations thereof their entire life. I have very high standards for what I wanted my product to be like. It would have been easy for me to just to get some quick notebook made, but I wanted this thing to be as high quality as I could possibly make it. And as soon as you set the bar that high, you're going to have to build in time for revisions because even if they get the product just right or they get all components correct, it's time to dial things in. Like this shade is too dark or this is too thin or is it too long.

Ryder: And so all these adjustments that most people may not even see, but I certainly do and the only way that I could deliver this product was making sure that it met my own standards and thereby feeling fully confident in offering it to my community. Again, this is a very important tool. So one thing is to have some self-awareness, like really know what your standards are and what you're trying to accomplish and using that in terms of setting up your timeline. Another one is being very acutely aware of international shipping rates because sometimes there are random countries or territories that are like, I kid you not, nine times more expensive than anywhere else in the world, and that can have an impact on your budget, right. When you have to ship 200 units to a country where the actual shipping rate is four times more than the actual product itself; those kinds of things. So it's...be aware of timelines and be aware of international shipping rates.

Felix: Got it. Now you said [crosstalk 00:38:49]. Right, so you said that you wish you would have a team and you mentioned that to others out there, to have a team in place. What particular skill sets would you say someone needs to have to fill out a team to support a Kickstarter campaign and then what happens after the campaign?

Ryder: I think it's really important to have a team that's based on the product that you're creating. So there's always a social component. Somebody needs to run socials. I mean it needs to be engaging with the community and ideally it is whoever the person is who proposes this whole thing to begin with. But at the same time, having experts in different fields or having people who can focus on one thing full time to allow other people to do their jobs, I think would be really helpful.

Ryder: So somebody who's focused on logistics, somebody who's focused on quality control, somebody who's focused on marketing, those kind of things. I mean, again, I did all of these things and it was just fine, but it definitely was way more pressure than I would have expected. And it was not a pleasant experience. If anything, it was one of the most challenging parts about running my company over six years. It was like the first time where I realized how important it is to delegate certain things. I underestimated what kind of investment, emotional and professional, financially it would have done.

Felix: Now when you had that partner with the manufacturer, did you find one before the campaign started? Like when, how would you, how were you able to identify the manufacturing partner at least for that very first order?

Ryder: Well, when I started putting together the Kickstarter campaign, the idea of having a custom notebook came to mind. Again, I needed a notebook that I could vouch for. So naturally I chose the company that created a notebook that I was already using because I used them for a reason. I've used countless notebooks in my lifetime from a whole variety of different producers.

Ryder: And this one company in Germany called Leuchtturm made these notebooks that I just really liked. So I reached out to them and asked if they were interested in creating a special edition, and fortunately they were. So it became a partnership to create this entirely new product, but that was one thing that I'm glad that I did do because a lot of the production was on them, if that makes sense, right.

Ryder: I didn't have to find a company to make the paper and another one to assemble the notebooks and another one to do this. A lot of the infrastructure was already provided by them. Of course that being said, this was a completely new product, so in some ways we both had to iron out things that are just a natural part of developing a new product. But together with them, I was able to create a product line that I was able to ship internationally and I feel like having them there made it possible. I think without that; having to source all the materials myself and assemble everything myself, I don't think it would have worked out as well.

Felix: Got it. So let's talk about the companion app that you came out with; you guys created. Now what's involved in creating an app like this? I guess walk us through the decision that you guys made to create this app and like what... Like how do you begin a project like this?

Ryder: Okay. So the app came around from many different places at the same time. Again, a big part of how I try to engineer my products is based on challenges. And one of the big challenges was, A, people kept forgetting to do their daily reflections, which is a pretty important part of the methodology. B, all the materials that are printed can become outdated very quickly. And I want to make sure that people have the most refined and up to date material. So one of those distribution platform that people can carry around with them to have the most up to date materials. And then more and more features started coming up to mind. And I was like, okay, why don't we create an app. An app that's designed for a platform that follows people everywhere in their life. And the phone made the most sense. Like the companion app isn't on an iPad.

Ryder: It's designed specifically for the phone because that's what we all have. So it was about identifying all of these different solutions that could only be afforded by technology because one solution could really implement in printed matter or not nearly as effectively or at all. So the apps started as a list of things that I wish I could solve. And then slowly starting to build features around that. And I think it's important to note that I am a digital product designer. I spent most of my career before I started focusing on bullet journal designing apps. So for me, figuring out how to solve these challenges is actually a lot of fun.

Ryder: Like how do I do this? What's the best way to solve this problem through some kind of UI? And that's really how the app came to be. I figured out one thing at a time and continued to do so. The new version of the app is currently being developed based on a whole bunch of feedback we got from the other versions of the app and we continues to evolve with the needs of the community. So it's really nice to have one part of our business that isn't completely analog because we can update it with the push of a button.

Felix: Got it. So the app, it's truly a companion app in the sense that your customers to have, or the users of that app probably have purchased the analog product from you?

Ryder: That's correct. It is not a replacement for the notebook. It's designed to be an extension of it. It's designed for, A, to keep you, to help you form a habit of checking in with your notebook, but also to fill in the gaps when you don't have your notebook around because you're not going to take your notebook to a party, you're not going to take it to the beach or something like that, but you're still going to have your mind and you're still going to generate thoughts. So all of a sudden you can just take out the app and log in really quickly and then later on you'll get a reminder to take those items and put them back into your notebook. So it creates kind of a eco system of how you can store your thoughts.

Felix: Got it. So the app is for iOS and Android and is listed for $2.99 currently. Now when you were creating this app or when you were ready to launch this app, how do you introduce it to your existing customers for anyone else out there that is thinking about creating a companion app for their product, if it makes sense. How do you introduce their launch to your existing customer base?

Ryder: Well for me that was pretty easy because the app was literally the solution for so many of the common issues that I got. So essentially that was the way I marketed it. Like for people who don't have their notebook around, here you go. For people who don't check in here you go. Like you're all these things that you've been asking for and now they're all in one package. So I didn't have to really sell them on this thing. It was just very clearly explaining why this was created. If anything, I would say the biggest point of confusion was that people thought that this was a replacement for the notebook and the way to solve that was just getting a lot of being much more careful with the language that was being used.

Ryder: So, I figured companion in the word was in the name of the product was certainly not enough. So we're very careful to say it is an extension of your notebook, not a replacement for it and people, the people got it, which was great. I mean it was a risk because it's the analog methodology for the digital world. And here we are with yet another digital tool that can raise a lot of eyebrows, but when people started using it, they saw what we were trying to do with it.

Felix: Got it. So it sounds like you already have a lot of experience creating apps like this or creating digital products like you mentioned. Were there any challenges though that you face when creating this app?

Ryder: Yeah, I mean it was the same challenge that I had originally teaching bullet journal because bullet journaling, again, is very much an analog methodology. So the first way that I taught bullet journaling was by creating a website to teach people how to use a notebook. And there are two very different kinds of mediums. So you have to figure out how to traverse that distance. And then I had to do exactly the opposite when I was creating the app. Like how do you use this?

Ryder: How does this app act as an extension of your notebook? So those are just interesting challenges to face. And also, I wanted to make sure that the app very much resembled the look and the feel and the brand of the rest of the company as well as people's bullet journals or something that would inspire people in a way and feel almost analog. Like when you see the app, there's a lot of untraditional design choices in it. It feels much more typeset.

Ryder: There's a lot of beautiful imagery in it. The idea is that it's emotionally evocative, which is something that I wouldn't usually do designing apps. But in this case, all of that emotional value of the app I think makes it a lot more relevant to the overall brand because it's not the end of the day where we are talking about people's minds and we're talking about journaling either. These are very emotional and very personal experiences and I want wanted to be out to function as an extension of that.

Felix: Now talk a little about the website at bulletjournal.com. What is your personal favorite part of this website?

Ryder: That's a good question. I guess it depends what I'm focusing on at the time. One thing I like about the website is that it has a very minimal quality to it and yet everything that's on the site is very, very intentional. It's much more about quality over quantity if you will. It's hard to populate a website when you don't have a lot of things to sell, right?

Ryder: Right now we have three products and so I have the Shopify site that sells very few products but yet needs to be incredibly informative at the same time. So striking that balance between being educational and yet commercial is an ongoing challenge, but I feel like very happy with the fact that we were able to use Shopify to essentially unify all the different platforms, which was fantastic. Our blog used to be on WordPress and then eCommerce or somewhere else and then all of a sudden we have one platform where you can do all these things. And I would say that a lot of the things that I like about the site or more on the backend; you get this much easier to run the business on this unified platform.

Felix: I definitely want to talk about the backend of the tools you used and just to emphasize a point about the balance between education and the commercial side. It's very clear. Once you land on the side there are two buttons that say on to me, it's either start here, which educates them on the methodology or straight to buy the book if they're already, if they already understand the methodology and are ready to make a purchase. Have there been any other changes that you've made to the site either recently or maybe not even recently, but that you've made to the site that has helped reduce the friction of making a purchase?

Ryder: Millions of tweaks, but I would say that a big addition is also we introduced the, I would say the biggest addition to the website is our support software at this point. We used to have an FAQ, but now we have something that's a lot more engaging and immersive. If you have questions, they can quickly find what they're looking for and if not, we have a support team to help people find exactly the answers that they need. And that's something that has removed a lot of friction in general and made us much more effective. So, those kind of things.

Felix: Now, what does that back end look like? What does the app that you use for support and any other apps that you recommend or that you currently use to run the business?

Ryder: Well, Shopify is the main tool and then we use help scout for all our customer support, which has been working out very well, especially how it integrates with Shopify for our newsletter, which is a critical component of our business. We are currently using Klaviyo, but we've cycled through a bunch of different ones trying to find what works best for us. And then we're a lot of smaller integrations, I guess. We have geolocation redirect and make sure that people end up on the right store that they need to. And, yeah, I would say that those are the main plugins that we use or integrations.

Felix: Got it. Now have you seen e-commerce entrepreneurs specifically using the journal. Can you talk about if you have, I guess what is the... How have they used it to run their business?

Ryder: It was a two part question. Yes, I have seen them use it and B, I have not seen how they used it, but it's interesting once in a while people will post articles about they do to run their business and they'll drop Bullet Journal. And I mean that's the interesting thing about bullet journaling, it can be used for so many different things, so I can't really assume what it's for. Like are they using it to make sure that their product pipeline is in place or they use it to deal with the stress that they have to see; running a company. The use case depends on the individual.

Felix: What is the most confounding use case that you've seen or heard of for the Bullet Journal?

Ryder: The most confounding? There are many. But there are many use cases that I wouldn't have thought of before. There are a lot of communities that form around very specific uses for bullet journaling, and those communities use it in ways that I would have never expected, but I don't necessarily want to focus on them because I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing, but there's some pretty wild use cases out there.

Felix: I guess we'll have to do some googling ourselves. Now, what is... I think this is the last question. So what has been the biggest lesson that you've learned from 2019 that you want to apply going into 2020?

Ryder: Do less; less but better. I mean it's the lesson that keeps coming up over and over again when running a business, especially as when you have a growing business. The good news is that you have so many newer opportunities, but the bad news is that you still have exactly the same amount of time and energy that you did beforehand. So for me, it's always about scaling back and scaling back and trying to make sure that everything that I create is something that I can really commit to with both my focus and my energy.

Ryder: So right now things are going well, business is growing, and there are a lot of different exciting opportunities right now, but especially towards the end of the year, I'm just shutting down many things that I feel can be put off and put till later to make sure that the things that I am working on right now get the time and energy that they really need because everything is more complicated than expected, especially when you're creating new things.

Felix: Awesome. So bulletjournal.com for anyone that wants to check it out and follow along with the new products that are coming out. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experience, Ryder.

Ryder: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.