Felix: Today I'm joined by Curt Nichols, from Glade Optics. Glade Optics builds premium goggles and helmets, for committed skiers and snowboarders. And we're staring at 20:16, and based out of Breckenridge, Colorado. Welcome, Curt.
Curt: Yeah, thanks Felix. Happy to be here.
Felix: So you had mentioned to us that you had started this business as a side project. So tell us more about that. What was the idea behind the business, to being with, when it was a side project?
Curt: Yeah, for sure. So back in 2016, I was pretty fresh out of college. I was working at a market research firm, and was very much headed down the traditional corporate path. I was working on a team that was helping consumer facing companies navigate moving from being more traditionally brick and mortar oriented, onto more digital platforms. At this job, my job was really to help a lot of these high level decision makers figure out their go-to-market strategy, their branding and their advertising copy, as they tried to navigate this, what we at the time, were calling the new consumer economy.
So I was exposed to a lot of high level decision makers, within the retail space, and within the commerce space. And at that time in my life, was very much, I guess what you could call a recreational skier. I skied five to 10 days a year. It was something I did, living in Boston we'd go on weekend trips with my buddies, or my family and things like that. But skiing was by no means a big part of my identity. However, I knew enough about skiing, to understand how the industry was changing. And through my experience at my job, in this market research firm, it was pretty clear to me that a lot of these changes were happening faster in other categories.
So I was able to marry the knowledge and the expertise that I was gaining, in this market research position, with my high level knowledge of the ski market, and in particular, in the category of goggles and helmets. So the brand started very much as a side project. I was really more looking for a creative outlet, than anything else. And I think like most people, in an entry level job right out of college, it can get fairly monotonous. You're not exactly doing super high level stuff at that age.
I was 24 at the time, so I was really just looking to flex my creative muscles, and to just have something to do, when I wasn't at my nine to five job. So when the idea first came to me, my feeling was sort of like, "Okay, if I start this as a side project, my goals for this are really mostly just to learn." I was really curious about business and commerce in general, and the meeting of commerce and media as well. So I viewed it as more of an exercise to gain some knowledge and some experience, thinking that it might help me in my career, or it might help me, in ventures down the road.
So I never really envisioned it to be the business that it has become. Obviously, it's grown to where it is today, but at the time, it was just like, "What can I do, that would be a nice, creative outlet, in my spare time?"
Felix: Got it. So you've mentioned that you expose these high level decision makers, and this is obviously a very valuable insight, especially this early on in your career, to have these bigger brands and companies to operate. What are some of the nuggets, that you took from that experience, that you were then able to apply in your business?
Curt: Yeah, I think my biggest take away, at the time, and when I was first starting out, was really, really honing in on who your customer is, who you are really trying to get after, at a super granular level. I think the issue with a lot of these brands that we were working with, was the fact that they traditionally were mass market companies. So if you think about someone like Proctor and Gamble, or any of the bigger conglomerates, that are selling mass market products, their products are designed to go after the biggest ground of people that they can possibly get, because they were advertising on places like broadcast television. So what was happening is that, as the internet, and as commerce on the internet really started exploding, people were realizing, "Oh man, we now have the ability to target really niche groups of people." So the nuggets that I was taking away from these conversations was really how much these guys were focusing on trying to change their messaging, and change their branding to attract more niche audiences.
So that to me was a huge signal of, "Hey, I bet this is happening in basically every other category that's consumer facing right now. I wonder if I can apply this to something that I have knowledge on."
Felix: So again you mentioned that when you first started this, you were just looking for a creative outlet. How much time were you spending on it, when you weren't working at the day job?
Curt: It was a lot, for sure. I think in the early days, trying to figure out how to bring a product to market, and trying to figure out how to generate demand, and make sure that the actual product was up to snuff in terms of quality and features, it took a ton of effort. But it's one of those things, that was a labor of love for me, in the beginning. It was very exciting. But I was certainly spending most nights and most weekends, working on it.
Felix: What would you say, back then, were the best uses of your time, for anyone else out there, that might be moonlighting, and staring a business too? What did you find, looking back, were the best uses of your time, during the nights and weekends that you did have?
Curt: Almost certainly sourcing a high quality product. That to me, was paramount at the time. And looking back on it, I think it was by far the most important thing I spent my time on. I have always been of the belief that the best marketing you can have, is having a really good product. So in those early days, I was spending the vast, vast majority of my time, trying to figure out how to bring a high quality product to market. And what that looked like, in practice, was basically just trying to understand the landscape of manufacturers and suppliers, for the ski goggle product that I wanted to create.
It was a lot of Google searching and phone calls, and buying competitors' products, and trying to figure out who was building their products, and things like that. And that process took me a long time. The landscape of manufacturers that were making ski goggles, at the time, there were probably 25 or 30 different factories that I identified that were able to do it. And I'm sure there was even more, that I didn't see. So the majority of my time, in the beginning was spent vetting these factories. I contacted each of these factories, either via email, or phone call, or Skype, or however I could contact them, trying to figure out A, would they even consider working with me at low volumes, and B, were they able to understand what I was trying to create, what product modifications I could make, and then see were they able to take my vision and then communicate it effectively. Whether that meant working around my hours, or just understanding what I was trying to do, and having a good conversation about it.
So from that initial list of 25 or 30 factories, it was pretty clear that only about half of them were even willing to work with me, just because my first production run, back in 2016, when I was trying to validate the idea ... I was trying to make the production run as small as possible, because I didn't want to spend a ton of money if the idea wasn't going to work. So there were probably only 10 to 15 factories that were even willing to make a production round of 300 or 400 goggles, whatever it was. So that whittled the group down, almost immediately. And then I had more in depth conversations with each of those suppliers, basically explaining my vision, explaining the product features that I wanted. And from there, I would say probably five or six factories were even willing to make those changes and modifications to the product.
And then, I had each of those factories send me a set of samples. So the way that the goggle industry worked, at the time, was basically, these guys were contracted out by other brands, and they had open molds from goggles, from many, many years ago. So I basically said, "Hey, send me your product. I want to test it out." And then I skied with those goggles, for almost an entire year, trying to figure out which of these factories I thought was making the highest quality product. So that was really the majority of my time, in the early days.
I think I focused very little on things like marketing, and branding, I think to my detriment. I think it would have been smarter for me to figure out, "Okay, how am I going to generate demand?" But I am very happy that I spent so much time, trying to vet the product quality. Because at the end of the day, I'm still using that same supplier, to build our goggles. And they've been an amazing partner, all the way through.
Felix: Does that mean that you would have chosen a different path, or that you find that the path you took was the better long term approach?
Curt: I think it's a good long term approach, to make sure that your product quality is dialed. I think I neglected to fully think through the launch phase of things. I made the mistake that I think a lot of entrepreneurs probably make, which is the idea that, "Oh, if I build it, they will come." So I had spent all this time, trying to dial in the product. Got it to where I felt like it was a high quality product, and I could bring it to market, and then I built the website, and just sat there like, "Oh yeah, there is this whole other component of this business, where I actually have to generate demand."
Thankfully, the product quality was high enough that word of mouth started spreading, and we were getting some features in some publications, and things like that. However, I would certainly recommend balancing that product sourcing, and product quality component with a healthy dose of trying to figure out how you're going to generate demand.
Felix: That makes sense. So it sounds like the pay off from the investment that you made in making sure you had a superior product was the word of mouth, and referrals and reviews. But that can only come after you have a launch, and have some existing customers first, which is something that you had encountered late in the game, when you realized, "Wait a second, I actually have to try to get some demand first." And we'll get to that in a second. When you were talking about trying to understand the landscape manufacturers, and making sure that you picked the right one, what were these modifications that you were talking about? What makes your specific product special, above the competitors?
Curt: I had a vision for the aesthetic look of the goggle. An interesting part about our specific category is, there's not a whole lot of room for differentiation. The ski goggle product has been largely commoditized, so when I'm talking about the features, and the modifications that I wanted to our particular goggle, I wanted it to look unique. I wanted it to be something that, when someone saw it out on the chair lift, or they saw it out on the slopes, or anything like that, or on an Instagram post, that the goggle would be uniquely Glade. That was of primary importance to me, and so that was what took up a lot of that time, was figuring out, "How do we create something that's unique, but that is also familiar enough that it's not too far afield that people will be afraid to buy a new product, from a new brand?"
Felix: Got it. So clearly it's going to be a divergence, at least a bit, from what these manufacturers are typically creating. So how difficult was that process, of explaining the product features, and the adjustments that you wanted to make?
Curt: It was more difficult than I anticipated, I would say. A lot of ski goggles, and helmets on the market, out there right now, are, what, I guess you could call open mold goggles, which basically means there's no pattern on the goggles. Anyone can make it, it's like a plug and play type thing. So in order to make the modifications, it was a question that I think a lot of these factories had not been asked before. But again, that was part of the vetting process. Some were just willing to work with me, I think. At that time, there were probably not a whole lot of people, thinking about doing what I was doing. I think if I had tried to do that today, I probably would have gotten a lot more nos, than I did at the time.
Felix: Got it. Now, these 300 or 400 goggles, that's pretty much as low as you can get, for a production run. Were there any stipulations, any tips for anyone else out there, that doesn't have much to invest, or doesn't want to take too big of a risk yet, but does need some products to begin with? How do you negotiate something like this?
Curt: Yeah, I think the way that I negotiated, was basically saying, "Hey ... " I was just very truthful with the suppliers. I said, "Hey, I have this vision for the brand. I have a vision for what I want to do. We're starting out small, and we're testing the market. I'd love to do a really small production run." And the way that I was able to negotiate that with the suppliers, was basically saying, "I'm not going to ask you to do that much, that's any different than what you're already doing. I have an idea for the color that I want, and some specific features, but I'm not asking you to reinvent the wheel. This is not a highly complex product. We're not doing any new tooling, we're not doing any new kitting. Nothing like that." Basically it was just a conversation of, "Hey, when you're done making goggles, for the big guys in the industry, throw on an extra 100, and make these changes to it, and then let's go from there."
Felix: Got it, okay. Now, that sounds like a pretty ... I guess, keen insight into how these manufacturers were creating ... how they operate from inside, knowing something that they could just use a mold, or use the set up that they already had. How did you learn this?
Curt: A lot of research, and a lot of conversations with these guys. I think the reason that Glade has been successful, is largely because our differentiation is predicated upon branding and distribution, and pricing, and the way that we communicate with our customers. So when I was going to these factories, and trying to figure out what the landscape looked like, and how they were working with the bigger, incumbent brands, they were pretty open with me. I was just asking them point blank, "Do incumbent brands own their mold? What does the process look like?" Things like that. And this was all part of the process. I think the reason that I kept moving forward with the idea, in the beginning, was because of what I learned about the manufacturing process.
I learned that there are very few patents in the industry, and there are a ton of open molds, and that the product features, and feature sets are largely commoditized. So I think that was all part of the vetting process, in the early days.
Felix: Got it. Now, let's talk about what happened after you got this production running 300 or 400 goggles. You had mentioned that you didn't really think about, "How do I actually launch this?" What did you do, once you'd got them, you got them ... I'm assuming shipped to your home? What were the next steps for you, to determine how to actually sell these?
Curt: Yeah, so I was living in an apartment, in Boston ... And for anybody who's ever lived in Boston, you know that apartments aren't very big there. They're very old, and they're very small. So I had the initial production run of a couple of hundred goggles, sent straight to my apartment. So I had a bunch of cartons of ski goggles, sitting in a closet, which my roommates were thrilled about, at the time. But my next plan was really just to ... the idea was, "Okay, I know that product photography is really important, and I know that there is opportunity, in this category, for a new brand voice." So I built the website myself.
You can do this now, with Shopify. At the time ... this was 2016, so I think I spent like 100 bucks, to build the website myself. I hired a photographer for like 200 bucks, or something crazy cheap, and said, "Hey, I need some products on photography," and just went from there, with zero lifestyle photography. Actually, when I go back and look at the website, I cringe, because I do have an archive of it. But, the copy that I had on the website, I think was unique enough that it was catching some people's eye. So I built the website, was all ready to go, and then realized I didn't have really any sophisticated demand generation strategy.
And what ended up working really well for me, and working in my favor, is that Instagram, and Facebook, at the time, there was a ton of opportunity for arbitrage. So I was able to create an Instagram account, and at the time, when I was posting things, it was actually being seen by our followers, which was really helpful. So the early days, digital advertising certainly was a big help in spurring demand. The other thing is that the ski goggle product itself was inherently shareable.
So I obviously had a network of friends, and families, and colleagues that were supporting me, and probably ordered the first whatever, call it 40 to 50 pairs of goggles. And then, as they were going skiing, they were posting pictures. And when you're posting pictures of yourself skiing, goggles are usually the primary focus of the photo, as well as the fact that skiers, skiing is inherently a social sport. So if you're on the chairlift, or going skiing with a group, skiers are very much obsessed with new gear.
So I think I was very fortunate in the sense that the product did have inherently shareable components to it. So it wasn't super hard for me to sell a couple hundred of them, especially given the fact that to pay for digital advertising at the time, was super cheap. So it was not a sophisticated strategy, to answer your question. It was basically friends and family, word of mouth, and a small smattering of digital ads.
Felix: Got it. So what about what happened next, once you sold out that first production run, how large was the next run, and how did you scale up your approach, to sell a larger batch?
Curt: Yeah, I bootstrapped it myself, for the first few years. And after that first production run, and after that first winter, I realized very quickly how painful a seasonal business can be. After March 15th, the demand for anything ski related just drops off a cliff. So I ended that season, after selling those first 200 pairs of goggles, or whatever it was, and then was sitting on more cash than I was sitting on, at the beginning of the season. And I was like, "Okay, sweet. That worked. Let's double down. Let's put all this cash into a new round of inventory." Only to realize that, "Oh yeah, I'm not going to make any revenue, until October, or November of next year." So what I learnt in those early days is that it was slow going. I took the cash that I made in profit from the first season. I plowed all of that into inventory for the next season, and basically just repeated that, for the first two or three seasons.
I was fortunate that goggles are extremely high margin products, so I was able to grow, in those early days, probably 200, or 400%, year over year. Which, when you're at small lines, obviously doesn't mean much, but it means a lot, in the sense that you're able to survive, and you're able to keep going. So that was how the first few years netted out, was me hedging my risk still. I was still working full-time, and I didn't have any money to my name. I was 25, all my savings had gone into the first production run. So I was really just playing with house money, at that point. And my thought process was, "Okay, if I can find a sustainable way to keep people coming to the website, and to keep people purchasing every year, I think it's worth a shot."
Felix: At what point did it become a full-time pursuit?
Curt: That was probably two and a half years after I started. And I probably could have gone full-time before that. I will say, I'm a pretty risk averse person. I was pretty unwilling to make the leap, until I felt financially secure in the business, and I felt like I had a sustainable, and repeatable way to grow the business. So that was really the hold up for me, was trying to figure out, "Okay, what does my marketing mix look like? How can I diversify, and how can I make sure that if one of these channels doesn't work next year [inaudible]."
Felix: Yeah, we got disconnected. I think the last thing you were talking about was, about what you meant by sustainable, and repeatable ways to market and grow the brand.
Curt: Yeah, what I was saying is, when I was trying to make the decision to go full-time, the decision for me, was really predicated upon my ability to create a sustainable, and repeatable way to acquire customers, over time. As well as making sure that those methods were diversified. So, as someone who's pretty risk averse, I was very cognizant of the fact that I did not want to be overly reliant on one particular method of acquiring customers, or anything like that. I wanted to make sure that I was hedging my bets, in that respect.
Felix: Yeah, I certainly think that this is a mindset for a lot of people, that are starting businesses, and these two factors of the sustainable, repeatable ways, that are not just dependent on one source, to acquire customers. Makes total sense. You also mentioned being able to be financially secure, which is going to be different for different people. What was that for you, was it a certain number of savings, or a certain cash flow? What was it that made you feel safe, to make the jump?
Curt: Well, I was young, and I didn't have any kids, and I didn't have a mortgage. So I think my threshold for that was probably a lot more basic than other people's. My plan was basically, "If I can survive, if I can pay rent, if I can transition from my corporate day job, into doing Glade full-time, without a loss in ... " I guess in my lifestyle, and I could continue on, as things were going, that for me, was really the decision point, just because I didn't have any dependents, I was young. And I think that benefited me, in a lot of ways, just because I had very little to lose at the time.
Felix: Now, the sustainable and repeatable ways to acquire customers, what did that look like for you? What were different methods, that you had laid out, that made you feel safe, that hey, if one of these fails, you've still got a couple of other ways to acquire customers?
Curt: I spoke a little bit about the digital advertising ecosystem. That was big for us, in the early days, because the arbitrage opportunities were huge, so that was driving a fair amount of sales for us. I also was leaning really heavily into email. And I still do this, to this day. I love email as a marketing channel. I think anytime you have a channel like that, that you own the relationship with the customer, and you're not reliant on a third party to get your message out, is always beneficial. So email, I would really strongly encourage anybody out there to start building their list, and getting really serious about that, because to this day, email drives about 25 to 30% of our revenue.
So that was one channel that was an easy, early win for us. I also was really, really willing to experiment with a bunch of stuff. In those days, I was willing to try out podcast advertising, or trying to develop partnerships with ski clubs, or ski teams, or ski trip organizers. I was not afraid to do things that didn't scale. I was totally willing to email 50 ski clubs and say, "Hey, here's who we are. Here's the discount code," et cetera. And we still have relationships with some of those clubs, to this day. So it was stuff like that, as well as, I was going to beer festivals, and craft fairs, in ski towns, throughout the winter. And some of those, we did zero sales. It was me and my wife, sitting in a tent, in the cold, and we would sell nothing. But other times, we'd have days that were $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 just at the time, was really, really validating.
So I think in terms of marketing mix, and how I thought about it in the early days, I think Glade benefited pretty tremendously from a willingness to just throw stuff against the wall, and see what stuck. Because some of the stuff that worked was really surprising. And some of the stuff that didn't work, I thought would work really well. We have never been able to really get an effective affiliate program, or an effective referral program off the ground. And I, in the beginning was really thinking that those would be really viable channels for us, but for whatever reason, it just hasn't worked.
Felix: So a couple of questions there. The first one is, you mentioned that you were really willing to do the things that didn't scale. What was the thought process behind that kind of mindset?
Curt: I still have this feeling. I'm still willing to do stuff that doesn't scale, is that especially in the early days, it's just really important to get your product out in the market, because A, you need feedback on the product, and you need feedback on how you're selling it. So yes, it took me a lot of time to email those ski clubs, and trip organizers, and things like that. But if I sold 10 goggles to a ski club, that was a win for me, because those 10 people, maybe one of them would come back, and give me some feedback on some feature of the product, or some other ski related nuance, that I was unaware of.
So my feeling is, we are probably still benefiting from those early, un-scalable actions, just because if we got 10 ski goggles out there, and five of those people tell their buddy on the chairlift about Glade, and that creates two new customers for us, I think that marketing flywheel is really, really effective. So I would certainly encourage people to not just discard an idea, because it's not scalable. I think in the early days, those were our biggest wins, because you need feedback in the early days. It's just so important. To this day, the way that I talk about Glade is more or less an amalgamation of everything every customer has ever said to me about the brand. Just because of how important that feedback has been. Something that we have doubled, and tripled down on over the years, is the fact our goggles are anti-fog. And when we started, I never thought that would have been that important to people. I would have thought it's just another feature. But through going to those craft fairs, and beer festivals, and through talking to ski clubs, that's something that, it was pretty evident early on, that people cared about.
Felix: Makes sense. Now, you mentioned you weren't afraid to also experiment with different channels. I think there is kind of a spectrum here, where someone might be hyper focused on just one channel, or one way to call our customers, and then there's the other end of the spectrum, where it's a shiny object syndrome, where you're jumping from one thing to the next. For you, how do you know when you've given enough time on an experiment, to make the call on whether it's worth reinvesting back into it, or pulling out completely?
Curt: Yeah, I think unfortunately the answer is not binary. It's very rarely clear that something is either really working, or really not working. I think the vast, vast majority of things that, at least I have done in the marketing space, have been somewhere in that gray area. I have always been pretty hyper focused on first purchase profitability, as well as ROI on a channel. So if we're putting significant resources towards a specific channel, and we're not seeing the return that is comparable to other channels that we have, and that we have doubled down on, then we'll usually cut our losses. But again, I think you do have to give each channel a fair shake. I think a good example of this actually is, we tried advertising on a ski related podcast, three years ago, and we did not have success with it. It just didn't work. I think we tried one or two podcasts, and we did not see the return that we were expecting. And we totally abandoned the channel, until a couple of months ago, when we decided, "Hey, maybe we should give this another shot."
And we have a podcast ad running right now, that's one of our most successful channels. So I think there's so much that goes into it, in terms of timing and resources you're putting behind it, and how well known your brand is, in the category, which certainly helps. But my feeling about when you should be doubling, or tripling down on certain channels, is unfortunately largely gut feeling. I don't have a sophisticated way of thinking about it.
Felix: Now, I'm going to talk about email, because you had mentioned this was one of the most powerful, and sustained sources of acquiring purchases, repeat purchase from your customers. What does that look like for you? What does it look like, for a customer of yours, to be on your email list? What kind of emails, and how often are they getting them from you?
Curt: Yeah, I'm glad you asked, because I think it looks totally different than most other brands out there. We did do something pretty unique with our email list, in that we do the traditional abandoned cart, browse abandonment, all those types of flows. Those look very similar to everybody else. However, if you are on our list, and you are getting campaign emails from us, about inventory levels, or shipping schedules, or just random updates throughout the ski season, those emails come into your inbox from me, directly. The front field says, Curt@Glade. There is a subject line, and then the body of the email is plain text, no photos, maybe one or two hyperlinks. The email comes in, basically looking like it's an email from a friend, or a family member. Anybody in your life that you would email, on a one-on-one basis.
And the thinking behind this, is the result of a fair amount of A/B testing. So we tested your more traditional marketing emails, with lots of flashy pictures, and sales, and things like that against these plain text emails. And what we've realized is that the engagement level on these emails is so much higher. So not only are open rates higher, not only are click through rates higher, but every time we send an email out, I got a couple of hundred emails back into my inbox, people emailing me back, as if they're a friend, or a family member, saying, "Hey, this is super interesting." Or, "Hey, I have a question about the goggles," et cetera. It's a great way for me to engage with our list.
It's a great way for me to develop relationships with people in our ecosystem. And on top of that, ESPs actually recognize those emails as closer to friends and family emails, versus emails from a brand. So what that means is that, our emails are far more likely to be taken out of the spam box, and put into the inbox. So that's why our open rates are so high on them, because the ESPs are looking at the email, they're not seeing a ton of pixel data. They're not seeing a ton of pictures, and they're saying, "Okay, this is unlikely to be spam." Or, "This is unlikely to be a promotion, therefore we are putting it in the main inbox, in Gmail."
So I would highly recommend other brands at least experiment with this. It might not work for you. It worked for us, but we've had pretty tremendous success with it. And I have developed a really good sense of what our customers are looking for, through these emails, just because I do have such an open dialogue with them now.
Felix: So these are emails that look like an email from a friend or a family member. What about the content? What is the content of the emails? What does it consist of?
Curt: It's really minimal. It's usually three or four lines of text, and then a link. I try not to bombard the list with emails. You might get one email every two weeks, I think it is probably the cadence. And the content of the email is, it's going to be timely. A good example of an email we just sent out is, "Hey, we're running low on this particular color of goggle. If you want it, I would recommend you buy it now." Or, "Hey, here's our shipping deadlines for Christmas." It's always informative. It's never spammy. If I don't have a reason to email the list, I won't email them. I would never send an email out that's just like, "Hey, look at our product line." We have welcome flows, for that exact purpose. So once you've graduated beyond that welcome flow, my assumption is, you're familiar with who we are. I'm not going to bombard you with email, unless I think I have a good reason to.
Felix: Now these welcome flows, do those typically look like, I guess the typical branded email campaign, or does it look like the friends and family, I guess design, or approach that you've taken?
Curt: Yeah, those look like your typical branded campaign. And the reason for that is that, for a brand like ours, that is in a space that has been historically dominated by basically two incumbents, there is a base level of education, and social proof, that we need to get to new people, or people that are new to our brand. So in those welcome flows, we do a ton of social proof. So we'll put in quotes from magazines that we've been published in, as well as reviews from other customers. Just because there is a hump that we have to get over, in terms of educating people about who we are, and making sure that they feel comfortable purchasing from us, and that we're not just some random drop shipping brand, or something like that.
Felix: You mentioned that the business, especially early on, was a very seasonal based business. Did you make any shifts in the business, to level that out a bit?
Curt: Yeah, we've struggled with this, from day one. It's something that's top of mind for me, almost 24/7. We've made efforts in that respect. So what we have done, is we have expanded into sunglasses, as well other accessories for mountain activities, in the summer. We are coming out with a really robust sunglass line this summer. We piloted one last summer that we had a lot of success with. But again, it's hard to overcome that cognitive bias, when everybody looks at your brand in a certain way, I think it's really hard to educate your customers about the direction you're going in. So I don't have a super solid answer on how we overcome the seasonality issue. I think that we are trying to become the mountain eyewear go-to brand. That's the ethos with which we are plowing ahead. It's not clear to me how successful that would be. But based on our pilot last year, with the sunglasses, I'm pretty optimistic that we'll be able to carve out a niche in future seasons.
Felix: Since right now, the peakest, or during those winter months, do you make any kind of shifts, or adjustments to the business, over the years, to specifically attack, and perform better, each peak season?
Curt: Nothing dramatic. I think our selling season is so compressed, between November and February, that I'm totally hands on deck for the next three months. This is the busiest time for us, no doubt. I still answer every single customer service email that comes through. So I am super, super busy at this time. In terms of how I've changed the business over the years, it's really been about making sure that I have enough time to do the things that make an impact on the business. So it's been about outsourcing. So for example, in the early days I, of course, was shipping out of my apartment. And then, as we grew, I outsourced fulfillment to a third party logistics provider. I offloaded the accounting stuff to a third party platform. So really, the biggest changes in preparing for peak season for us, have basically just been about offloading, and outsourcing things, to make sure that I have enough time, to do stuff that's impactful.
Felix: So one thing you did not mention, that you have mentioned too, was also about how outsourcing the digital marketing was a disaster. And you admit now, how you are very hands on, with how personalized your emails are, that you're answering customer service emails. So obviously, you've scaled that back. So tell us more about that, what happened with the outsourcing of digital marketing, that made you basically reverse your steps there?
Curt: I think our main problem was the fact that our incentives weren't aligned with the agency that we hired. This was, I believe, two seasons ago, that we were working with this particular agency. And what's interesting is that the payment structure that we were working on them with, was basically just predicated upon spend. It was not predicated upon any time of success metric. So a big learning for me, through that process was, if you are going to hire an agency, or any kind of third party provider to help you with marketing, or really anything, just make sure your incentives are aligned. I would have been much happier if we were paying them, based on a ROAS goal, or something like that, instead of just a spend goal. So that was a huge, huge learning, in the early days, for sure.
Felix: Is it something that you would eventually outsource ... if it was safe to outsource again, knowing that you were to align your incentives better?
Curt: Yes. And I think a lot of learning was around the fact that, I frankly, didn't know enough about our customer, to correctly articulate to this agency how we should be talking to them, and how we should be marketing the product. So, by taking marketing and digital advertising back in-house, and doing it myself, I gained a lot of personal knowledge about what type of copy really resonates, what type of features really resonate about our product, and how our customers are speaking about it, to other people. So I think it was important for me to take that back, and gain that knowledge. Because now, I think I would feel much more confident outsourcing that again, with a better incentive structure, as well as the more knowledge that I have now.
Just because, our category is so idiosyncratic. The way that skiers talk about gear is so different than if you're selling a wallet, or something like that. There's certain terminology you have to use. You have to use phrases and things, to basically signal to other skiers, that you know what you're talking about. It's a weird industry in that respect. And we totally missed it out in the beginning. So there's a lot of learning in that domain, that I would feel far more confident going to an agency now.
Felix: What kind of, I guess, daily practices, or a practice that you've built in the business, to make sure that you are absorbing this kind of knowledge ... for your own use, or in the future, so that you can offload this to someone else?
Curt: I alluded to this a little bit before, but I think the single most important thing I do, is answer every single customer service email myself. I think that's the single best source of truth about how we are doing as a brand, in terms of our communication, and our copy, as well as how we're doing in terms of our product quality, and how people are thinking about our product. So what I have done, as I have been answering these emails for years and years now, is created a document, basically, that A, serves as a repository for any product features, and upgrades I think we should make for follow on years. As well as, standard answers to questions, that we get a lot. So what that, in turn has helped me do, is actually create a really effective frequently asked questions page. So we get the same 10 questions every season, and by adding those questions onto our website, I think we've been able to cut down on the actual volume of customer service inquiries that we get.
But, I think a lot of people look at customer service, and say that's a waste of my time. We should hire some entry level interns to do that. I completely disagree with that, because I think a lot of the most impactful decisions that have been made, from a strategy perspective, in our business, have been a result of me, directly interfacing with our customers. Just because, they'll be vocal about what product features they want to see change, what upgrades they want, what marketing is important to them, and things like that.
Felix: Awesome, so we'll talk a little bit about the website. You have mentioned that you still have an archive version of the first version of the website, that makes you cringe. So tell us more about, what are some of the changes that you've made along the way that have had the biggest impact on the growth of the business, when it comes to things like conversion rate, and getting those sales?
Curt: Yeah, I think two things really jump out to me. The first is social proof. We noticed a massive jump in conversion rate, as we started to get logos of well respected publications, in the ski industry, onto our front page. So if you look at our website right now, and I think the second thing that you see, is a list of publishers that have written about us, with links to those articles. So what that has done is created a lot of reassurance for people that are new to the brand. So if you go to our website for the first time, and you're trying to figure out who we are, and what we're about, you're going go feel a lot better about buying equipment from us, if Outside Magazine has written about us, if FREESKIER Backcountry Mag, Ski Mag, BLISTER Gear review. When you see those type of articles up there, about us, I think it makes people a lot more comfortable purchasing from us, so that's been huge.
I would highly recommend any new business do this. And I know it seems daunting in the beginning. And certainly, we did not have this for a long time, but the way we thought about it was sort of like a pyramid. So we started with really low level publications, like local newspapers, or really niche publications, within the outdoor space, that maybe didn't get a lot of traffic, but they were willing to write about a new startup. And once we got those guys to write about us, it was a little bit easier for us to go out, and try to get articles by some of the bigger players in the industry. So I would recommend ... even if it's not something like Outside Magazine, if it's a local newspaper, or something like that, just get the logo up there, because I think people want some third party validation.
And we've also added a lot of customer reviews to the site, as well, more prominently displayed. The second thing that we did, that really helped, was be much more diligent about our landing pages. So, I frankly was not really aware that this was even something you could do, until probably a year or two ago. But we use an app called Shogun, to design very, very customized landing pages, for our advertisements, as well as for our product pages, as well as for more specific, feature oriented pages. And what this has allowed us to do is, if we're advertising to you, about a specific product feature, we can then have you click out into a landing page that elaborates on that specific feature.
So it just makes us a little more sophisticated, in terms of our customer journey, and making sure that the copy is really well aligned, across the entire journey, for each particular person, because some parts of our product are more important to people than others. And I think it's important to understand that each persona that you have, probably cares about things, in a way that's a little bit different. So just creating those landing pages, and making them really, really hyper customized, has helped us a lot.
Felix: Yeah, that sounds like it can be a big lift, to create all that ... How many landing pages are we talking about?
Curt: Yeah, it's a fairly big effort. Right now, we probably have somewhere between 15 and 20. However, they're very similar. In terms of product photography, and lifestyle photography, that's all very similar across the pages, because we know the photography that converts really well. And we're really just tweaking the copy, for most of these pages. Some of them are totally different, obviously. But even just tweaking the copy, to highlight one feature over another, or highlight one part of the business over another, I think can really go a really long way.
Because some people buy from us, because we're lower priced than our competitors. Some people buy from us, because we're an independent brand, in a category where no one else is independent. And some people buy from us, because we have a particular anti-fog system that is better than our competitors. And we want to make sure that, for each of those people, we're highlighting that, very clearly to them, as they move their way through our website.
Felix: Got it. And that kind of alignment you're talking about, it's between the ad and that landing page? What message are you looking to keep consistent, through this funnel?
Curt: Yeah, it's from the ad, or it's from an article that was written about us, or it's from ... We go through all of our traffic sources, and we make custom landing pages for each of them. Because we assume that, depending on where that person is coming from, they have either a different demographic makeup, or a different psychographic makeup, or a different reason that they're looking for a goggle. Because some people are just looking for a replacement for something that was old, and is/has been broken. And some people are not even looking for a goggle, but they want to learn more about us, and they want to support us. So it's important that we're touting that message.
Felix: Yeah, I can imagine that being a ... to me, it sounds like a stressful time, where you're trying to [inaudible] what is a landing page, that we want to put in front of them, from this particle, or from this ad. Is that an easy thing for you to do, these days, or how do you determine what is the right landing page to put in front of them, as a next step?
Curt: Now, I have a fairly decent gut feel for the particular copy, that I think will work, in a given situation. However, that gut feel is the result of a lot of data, and a lot of A B testing over the years. I spent a lot of time, trying to figure out what particular messaging resonated with people that were buying our goggles, and testing a ton of different variations on that copy, both in our advertising, and on our website, and on the product pages. I have never been afraid to experiment, and I think that experimentation goes a really, really long way. Because at the end of the day, it might only change your conversation rate by whatever, 1% at the most, but that's huge, huge in the long run.
Felix: Definitely. So you mentioned you use Shogun for that. Are there any other apps that you rely on, to run the business?
Curt: Yeah, I think my favorite app, personally that we use, is called Product Upsell. It's by Bold, I believe. And we use this across all of our products. So what this app does is, if you add a ski goggle, or a ski helmet, or whatever the product is, to our shopping cart, you get a pop up that says, "Hey, we think that these other two products would really enhance your ski day." And those products are often things like a crush resistant case, or any extra lens, or a lens cover. They're really accessories, that we think are good compliments to the product that was added to the cart. And we have all this logic, that determines, "Okay, who is this person, and what did they add to the cart? Given that information, here is the type of product that we are going to recommend to them, in this pop up."
And we have seen tremendous success with this. Our conversation rate, on that pop up, is 30%. So that means that 30% of everybody that adds one product to their cart, is adding another to their cart, as a result of this pop up. So that's a huge revenue driver for us, just like table stakes. We don't have to do anything, just driving a ton of revenue. So I'm a huge fan of that app. I would recommend anybody to use this upsell, cross sell type thing. The other thing we do is, we use an app called CartHook Post-Purchase Offer, where after the customer has made the purchase, they've input their credit card information, they've confirmed the payment, and then you get pushed to that thank you page.
We then offer them another product, at a discount, after they've made that purchase. So if you purchase a pair of goggles, you go through the process. On that thank you page, you might get an offer that says, "Hey, if you want a helmet, in the next five minutes, you can get 10% off that helmet." We are seeing conversion rates of around 4% on that, which it's not huge, but again, that's revenue you would not get otherwise. So those two apps together, have really contributed to a pretty big boost in our AOD and our LTB, which ultimately is just really good for the health of the business. So I'm a huge fan of both of those.
Felix: Awesome. So Shopglade.com is the website. And I'll leave with this last question. What would you say is the biggest goal that you've set for yourself, for 2021?
Curt: Well, we have been very lucky, in the sense that we have been relatively un-impacted by COVID, up to this point. As most people know, ski resorts shut down last March, along with basically everything else. We were already sold out of all of our inventory at that time, so we came out of it relatively unscathed. So when I think about goals for this particular ski season, I think what's most important for us is, basically hitting our revenue targets, under the context of all of the resorts, and all of the ski areas staying open. There's a ton of uncertainty in the ski industry right now. We're seeing a ton of demand. I think people want to get outside, more so than ever. We saw this in the biking and camping industry, et cetera. So I think as long as ski resorts stay open, we will be exceeding our goals for the season. However, when I think about longer term goals, it's basically let's get through this winter, while COVID is still potentially going to impact us, and then think about the future.
Felix: Awesome. Thank you so much for your time, Curt.
Curt: Yeah thanks, Felix. I appreciate it.