Felix: Today I'm joined by Kamil Banc from Fragrance One. Fragrance One creates the highest quality fragrance for any situation, so you can get endless compliments throughout your day and was started in 2018 and based out of both Germany and Florida. Welcome, Kamil.
Kamil: Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Felix: Yeah, so before the business, before Fragrance One started, tell us about the back story about how you and your brother kind of started this business and the idea behind it.
Kamil: Yeah, so it kind of started on a very different note. My background was in industrial engineering. After graduating from university I moved to Hawaii, out of all places. My brother, he's four years younger than me, came out to visit me and he kind of got inspired by the American lifestyle, even though I was kind of a beach bum at that time. But he saw the possibility so instead of going to university he started even earlier than me to become an entrepreneurial type. And then I think it was around 2014 when he started after many other things, a YouTube channel that revolves around fragrances. So, that's the initial seed that was planted back then.
Felix: That's amazing. So when the YouTube channel got started, did it take off quickly? What was the growth of the channel?
Kamil: Yeah, that was actually surprising to me because I was following some YouTubers back then already and I thought it might be really difficult even in 2014, not even talking about today, to grow a channel organically. He did find a formula that set him apart, and that was that he was focusing on people's reactions to the compliments. Meaning there were fragrance reviewers before and they were all talking about the association with the fragrance and the ingredients obviously, the back story. But what people really care about, this is what we noticed is the complement factor. He went out and asked people in the streets, "How would you rate this fragrance from one to 10?" That's really what set him apart.
Within the first I think, three or four months, he went up to 60,000 subscribers which was very impressive I think because he didn't do anything besides that. And then now he's at 1.4 million on his American channel and I think the second largest fragrance reviewers around, let me guess, like 60, 70,000K, somewhere, just so you get the split there. That really shows you if you touch on what people really are curious about, then definitely there is potential for it.
Felix: Yeah, I think there's something really important there about how when you are interested in a topic, it's really easy to just get into the technical details and really dive into the exotic ingredients that I think lots of probably other reviewers probably went down, but your brother decided to go down this route of what is the emotion? What are the human elements of the experience, maybe of the product? And he decided to touch on that more. How do you think that your brother came to this angle because it's not super ... When you're thinking and looking back on it, looking back on the success of it, it's obvious that it's something people will care about, but at the time, how did he discover this angle?
Kamil: It was this typical story with him where he was looking for ways to better himself, just become a better person. And then he stumbled along style, how to do your hair, how to dress yourself, and then also fragrances. He was always interested in fragrances. He didn't mind anything that would really just answer the question, "Okay, if I go to a date, what fragrance do I wear to have the highest likelihood of getting compliments from that fragrance?" I don't want to know the name that's exotic and all that flair behind it, the backstory which is nice, but in essence he was looking for a way to discover fragrances that just work and do what they're supposed to in this specific situation. And that's basically what translates into Fragrance One down the road.
Felix: Yeah. So tell us about that. So the YouTube channel was growing really quickly. I think you said 60,000 subscribers pretty quickly. And then today I'm looking at 1.41 million subscribers right now. At what point along this journey did you two look at each other and say, "Oh, maybe there is a potential to kind of build a business around this." This community that you're building.
Kamil: So I think there were two answers to that question. The first kind of point was when he was really just going out or he had a girl in his office with the fragrance that he was reviewing it with her. And it was this reaction type video where I saw the response from the people in the comments. They just really loved it. So my suggestion to him was to review other products based on their complement factor. Let's say, okay, what's the complement factor of these shoes or this car and all that type of stuff? I'm glad he didn't take that idea, but that was kind of the first fork in the road where we noticed if you really focused on that factor and kind of visualized it to people that something that there seems to be something. And then down the line when we had ... He was growing his channel and then I was working on some other startups in the past.
And I was thinking about him and talking to him around 2017, that he should try to turn his influencer career so to say into an asset. So that's basically the ... Besides that he also knows what really works. So his market knowledge is there and it really helps. But that's one thing that I see with a lot of influencers and I work with a couple of other ones as well. It is really just like a long gig type of a work environment for them. And I think it's really if you can somehow create an asset out of your influence that works for you, then that's something really great. And obviously you have to create value for the customer along the line. Otherwise it's not working. But that's the one thing that a lot of people don't realize.
Those influencers yeah, they look really nice on Instagram and YouTube, but it's a tough life. I mean, they have no health insurance for the most part if you're in America, in Germany you're kind of covered. But this is just one of those things. And you always have to work. If you stop working, there's no income, right? So that was the basic idea. And then I have to credit to Jeremy, with the concept that he really described Fragrance One as this brand that wants to lead the customer through the fragrance jungle as we call it, to kind of make it very easy and simple and effective for them to purchase the fragrance that they need in a given situation.
Felix: Yeah, it reminds me of some of the almost converting the highly technical world of wine. Where there's so many ingredients, so many different ideas and seeing some influencers come and just say, what is good with what and what's good for what occasion? That's a lot of times the only question people have. And I think that-
Kamil: Exactly. And on that note as well, I'm basically the portal customer in that regard because I don't trust my own nose. I mean, now I'm a little better at this whole thing, but back then I would always just ask my brother, can you recommend a fragrance for me because you're the expert. And it's not like, I don't know what I like but I don't know how well it plays in a certain situation. And then there's the difference between a fragrance that lasts long versus not and dry down and the opening note. All these types of things, a lot of people don't really, it's almost like you shy away from it because it's a little bit overwhelming if you're not in it and that's what we wanted to solve for.
Felix: Right. I think when you are an expert, when you are coming out as wanting to be a leading brand, a kind of a leader in this space of helping consumers, you kind of have to help them make the decision, right? You can't just throw all the options out there and then have them make the decision because they're probably not as equipped as you to help them make that decision. I think that helping bridge that gap, helping your consumers and your customers understand or make that journey as quickly as possible I think there's a lot of value there. And I think you've proven that. So we talked about the 1.41 million subscribers in the channel. Give us idea of how big the business has grown since beginning it.
Kamil: I mean, we started with a pretty big bang if I can say so. Even though we didn't really have to, we went the crowdfunding route. So this is something that I was comfortable with from my previous endeavors. And also because I just wanted to gather a little bit more market data. So we started off and that's one of the key steps in our business that really makes it for an interesting story. We pre-sold almost a million dollars worth of fragrance which is by the way record breaking. The second largest campaign I think is around $60,000 for a fragrance. And we pre-sold it without anybody ever smelling it. So we basically took the sense of smell out of the equation in a fragrance company, which shows you just the power of the why basically. Why do I buy it? This is something that I have from my design thinking background where people they're often when they have a problem they're just describing the symptoms meaning I want to fragrance that I really like, and then all these types of things.
But what's the actual underlying problem that they have, which is in our case, at least for our customers is I want more compliments, right? So we took that approach and we turned something that looked like a huge negative, which is nobody ever smelled the product into a big positive. And the way we did it was by basically well, first of all, quality comes first, right? We have no budget on the ingredients. We work with the best manufacturers in the world. We literally hired Michael Jackson so to say of the perfume world to collaborate with us. And my brother because of his years long experience and what works, what doesn't, he was like the creative director of the fragrance.
Kamil: We used the best bottles, best fillers in Germany. So that's all taken care of but okay, what comes next is I don't know how that thing smells. So then we went around and we thought, okay, you don't really need to know how it smells. The groundwork is done. It's a good fragrance and you're buying it because of the compliments you're going to get. And that scent it was Office for Men, our first release. So if you're a guy and you want to get compliments in the office, this is what you wear. If you don't like the smell, that's okay. But that's not what you're buying it for in your mind, right? In the end people really liked the smell as well but that's kind of what helped us a lot.
Felix: Got it. Okay. So I think there's a couple of things here too that you've answered that we're going to unpack. So you mentioned first understanding your consumers are buying. Probably what is the problem that they're trying to solve? How did you understand that? How did you, because that's a big step I think that can be missed and kind of leads you down the wrong path for a long time. But how did you guys discover that it was compliments that people are looking for?
Kamil: Right. It was basically based on the response from people to the YouTube channel and the social media channels before that. So we were really thinking about how to create a brand that kind of incorporates the secret sauce that really set Jeremy Fragrance apart from all the other fragrance reviewers. And then we tried to put that into a business idea.
Felix: Got it. And this idea of the first launch with the product on Kickstarter Office for Men, how did you know to focus on that specific market, that specific use case?
Kamil: So Office for Men is a very long lasting fresh fragrance, which is kind of a safe bet. Everybody likes fresh fragrance, right? The problem with that often is that they don't last very long hours, they last very long. And we just tried to create the best product in that category with a very simple description. That's why it's called Office, right? Very simple, no extravagant wording or anything. And then I'm also, I have to credit my brother that he didn't really put more ego into the first scent, and what I mean by that is he didn't make a twist to kind of make it very recognizable to be him. He really focused on the mission of that fragrance. So he worked with Alberto Morillas who's the perfumer. He was working on all kinds of fragrances that you know, the CK One, Dolce & Gabbana, Armani, Bulgari, all that type of stuff.
And usually those big brands, they just hire a perfumer like this guy and just give him free range. But my brother, I don't know how he did it, but they had literally like 40 to 50 feedback loops to kind of improve the fragrance to what he wanted to hone in on. And that's what it was in the end, so that's why we went with the fresh fragrance. Because it was really a compliment getter that lasts long. And yeah, and that was before COVID. So now we are kind of having this internal joke where we call it home Office for Men.
Felix: I like that. So once you know that your customer wants more compliments, the next step is how do you convince the backers in this case for Kickstarter that your product was the right answer to that problem of wanting more compliments? What elements did you put into the campaign that demonstrated that this was the right choice for them?
Kamil: During the campaign, we obviously focused on those key pillars like I said, the perfumer, the ingredients that have no budget, the best manufacturers in the world, and my brother's knowledge based on his work previously to being in the market really going through thousands of hours of asking people what works, what doesn't, what works in what situation, what doesn't. And so this package basically eliminated a lot of the questions that people would have prior to backing a campaign like that. So you really make them feel comfortable. You try to answer all the questions they might have beforehand, and then you make it easy for them.
Felix: And those questions, how did you know those are the questions? What kind of research were you doing to understand that these were probably questions that needed to be answered on the campaign?
Kamil: Right. So, I mean for us, maybe it was just because we're kind of in it, but it seemed very simple. What is somebody asking? First we were looking at our demographics of our audience. So that basically puts the fragrance into a certain price range that we can get away with, that makes sense. And what can you do with that? And then also the obvious thing is a lot of people ask when you're thinking of buying a fragrance, you'd ask will I like it? But the thing is, you can't answer the question unless you smell the fragrance. Just to be honest with you, I didn't smell the final version because I was in New York at that time and my brother was in Switzerland working on the final version of the product.
So we eliminated this basic question of do I like the fragrance? And we transformed it into do I want compliments? And I'm willing to trust Jeremy and his experience with that? And that was basically the number one question that people have when they buy a fragrance. Do I like it? But it's not do I like the fragrance, but do I like what it does for me?
Felix: Makes sense. Now, this all started, because you had mentioned that you were talking to Jeremy about how to turn this influencer career basically into an asset. You had mentioned that a lot of influencers, their job feels like a long gig. I'm thinking it is a really insightful way to put it where it's kind of like you're always working for a paycheck. And when you stop working, you stop getting paid. And the first step was to turn it into an asset. What were the very first steps here? Because once you have a community, once you have a following, how do you even know what? I think maybe in this case, it makes sense where a fragrance influencer to create your own fragrance, but were there other steps involved to determine what kind of business to start, what kind of product to sell?
Kamil: Yes. I mean I always like to start with something that's called a business canvas when I work on a new project. Maybe some folks can look this up. It's basically a one sheet that visualizes the entire concept, that you can adapt over time based on your findings. You kind of make a suggestion of what you want it to be then you question yourself and all your resources that you have. And then based on that, you adjust it and then at some point you really have to get moving. But one crucial thing that I can really recommend is, and like you said, this has already been solved because of his influencer arm. When you start a business, you always have to either have your own audience or work with some body or some entity that owns your customers. Because I find it's easy to put ads up online and think that you'll build an audience just like that, but it costs a lot of money and time if you really want to do it from scratch.
So that's why I always recommend working with someone in some regard that already owns your customer base in some form.
Felix: Makes sense. So, one thing that you mentioned to us was that when you were going through these iterations for creating the product, you said that Jeremy went through 40 feedback loops. Was it all done with him or was there some kind of beta testing group that you also ran this against? What were the steps to kind of create that final product?
Kamil: Yeah. So usually from my background I'm always used to this lean approach where you don't build something until you test it a couple of times. But unfortunately with this thing, but maybe for the better we completely relied on Jeremy's experience which is something that you really have to know what you're doing because obviously you're putting a lot of time and money on the line, but in this regard it was something that we really just wanted to get through this way because of his experience. And also when you were trying to help the customers with finding something that they need in a specific situation, it might not be the best to get too much feedback, especially with something that's so subjective like a fragrance. Because oftentimes what can happen is again, people might not really focus on the mission of the business, which is to get people compliments versus, "Hey, I like this smell. Maybe I don't like the smell?"
You can never really satisfy everyone, but if you try to then you won't satisfy anybody. So that way we didn't do this the lean way, we really had Jeremy and Alberto Morillas sit together and they were just going back and forth, back and forth and doing the feedback loops.
Felix: Got it. So after it kick-started this as a Kickstarter campaign, almost one million pre-sold, what were the next steps to fulfilling all those orders?
Kamil: Yeah, that was one of our biggest struggles to be honest with you because Jeremy wanted to have worldwide shipping which is kind of a pain when you're working with a product that contains alcohol. It's dangerous, good. And we had a lot of hurdles to jump over and oftentimes we had to pay on top of what we ... We didn't make a lot of money with the Kickstarter campaign because of that. Because we had a lot of duties to pay, obviously certain countries don't let you fly in that stuff at all, unless you have the right documentation. And we were really trying to run before we learned how to walk in a certain way because we wanted to push ourselves. And we just knew that because fragrance has a big margin compared to other products, it has to be possible. So we'll figure it out when we get there. It was a little bit of a leap of faith, but we learned a lot. Let me say it that way because again it was a little bit difficult to fulfill everything and Kickstarter campaigns can be a little bit problematic afterwards.
Let's say like around 10% of the customers their bank doesn't work or their credit card is blocked or something like that. So you basically take 10% off of that off the top then I think Kickstarter takes another 7%. So yeah, that was the biggest struggle. And then once we had this figured out, we were starting to work with a fulfillment partner that we have now, we have a warehouse in the Netherlands and one in New Jersey and from there on it just smooth sailing. We started our Shopify store in March 2019, I believe. And yeah, it's been going since then.
Felix: Yeah. Talk to us about that transition from the kind of presale mode and fulfillment mode to now setting up your own platform to continue to sell this on an ongoing basis.
Kamil: Yeah. So we treated it like a two separate projects basically because you have different obligations to the backers of the campaign even legally, but just morally as well. And just logistically we just wanted to have this finished off and then we would obviously have a loyalty program now. So we included the people that backed us back then into the Shopify system, gave them compliments, and we have this compliment club that they can trade in for dollars. And that was basically it. It was really just finding the right partners. We were working with, let me guess, I think three or four logistics partners up until this point and the last one we've been sticking with them, they're called Sales Supply. They've been really great. And it's really important to find the right people.
Also when you have a product like this, just because of this problem with the alcohol content, we really had to work with someone during the worldwide shipping phase that could just get things done. Meaning that they know how to label certain things just to have less hurdles along the way. And oftentimes just an example, the big companies, we had enough orders to really work with DHL in Germany for example. So they set up a meeting and we came together and then the first thing they say, "Oh wait a second, you guys shipped fragrance. We can't ship fragrance." Like what? So it's kind of weird in that sense. So you really have to do your due diligence with the partners that you work with.
Felix: Yeah. So nowadays, how do you acquire new customers? Is it strictly through the YouTube channel or what other ways have you found that works to acquire new customers to the brand?
Kamil: We did a paid advertisement before, we were working with a really cool agency out of New York. However, the problem is and it's a good problem in the sense that every time when Jeremy posts a video, that we decide on that mentions the brand or we have some sort of like a contest or something like that to engage customers into the brand, it completely wipes out all the results from any paid advertisement campaign. So we've been mostly going organically. We're also on TikTok. We have a newsletter that converted really well during the campaign, by the way. And we use that every once in a while. I started a discord, which is the biggest fragrance discord now, the fragrance army. And yeah, so we're trying to go as organic as possible just because of the fact that I could either pay for a pre-roll video on YouTube or I could just edit a video for my brother and squeeze in like a five-second pre-roll myself. Right?
So one out of all things that we tried out I think one of the best magnets right now is this before you buy series, there's the playlist on his channel where we're basically just talking about other fragrances, and then we just mention our brand before or after. But it's really, it's just giving people more value. And we have this little sponsored by Fragrance One on the top left, but that's pretty much what it is. We're trying to go organic ways to answer your quiz.
Felix: Got it. Yeah. I think that there's the constant balance between just straight up content on one end and no selling and on the other end is like hard selling your product. How do you find that balance of what works when you want to of course keep this authenticity I think on YouTube and any platform where you're showing your face a lot? A lot of people, that's a big element too. How do you make sure that that's balanced well, where people aren't coming to your channel and feeling, "Oh, this is a biased review or something like that." How do you make sure that's balanced?
Kamil: Totally understand. The one thing that Jeremy clarified from the beginning is that he will compare our brand directly with other brands. Meaning when he has a top 10 best fragrances for the summer, he might mention Fragrance One somewhere along the lines, but he's not putting it in a top 10 list. So that way he can kind of stay out of this because it's yeah, like you say, you only have one reputation and obviously you can be tainted, but you have to be transparent. And he's very transparent with the brand. He talks about the pricing of it. He talks about how much it costs and also every once in a while he throws in the Bogle or some kind of other discount that really works well.
Felix: Got it. Now once you have a customer for the first time or what do you do to encourage these repeat purchases? I think a product like fragrance can last months to a year. So a good amount of time passed from that first purchase. How do you encourage a repeat purchase?
Kamil: Yeah. I'm actually very surprised we have about 30, 35% of repeat customers so far. And my wife and I, when we buy a bottle of fragrance, will last for a long time. But Jeremy is just very energetic and he ... How can I say this? Eccentric almost in a way, very polarizing. And he has all these spray routines. He says spray it five, six times, seven times if you want, so the bottle ends up fast. But we're always keeping the people engaged. And also we're not shy with discounts and all kinds of announcements. We released a lot of fragrance in the short time. We have, I would say six and a half products. One is a deodorant based on the Office, which is a lot because we are only in the market for a couple of years, right.
And every launch is quite expensive and usually brands take much longer to just refine what they already have. They reformulate it in a certain way, but we really, we give our customers something new every once in a while. And they're always excited to kind of stay on track. And obviously it's important to just stay on their mind. And that's why I like those content pieces like the before you buy videos because that always reminds them, "Hey, this is I was interested in that pregnancy and Jeremy also has his own thing, so I might check it out, see what's going on." One of the other things that also helps a lot is recently we started this compliment club, which is a loyalty program. That's one of the apps that I wanted to mention later on. And it's been really helpful. Yeah.
Felix: Awesome. The things with this partnership between you and your brother Jeremy have, talking so far it worked out well but one thing you had mentioned to us though that working with family can be a blessing and a curse. I think this is something everyone knows to some degree, right? About some horror story about working with a friend or a family that things not going the right way, even though sometimes the partial can make sense. So tell us more about this based on your experience, what are some of the kind of pros and cons and specifically what are some ways to make sure that it's the right thing to do or that you can navigate this kind of journey together successfully?
Kamil: Yeah. So it's really important just like with other partnerships, you need to set the right expectations. And also the communication needs to really flow. It's hard to have these implied contracts that happen much more often within family. Meaning, I do something and then I expect something else to happen without really communicating it. I think that's the crux of the problem oftentimes. And then, obviously you have a clear role. My brother is this very energetic, very open, creative type of person. And I'm more in the background. I like to pull the strings and strategize and kind of plan ahead. So I'm always pulling and he's always pushing and it's a good thing if you can contain it, but it can also lead to some internal problems sometimes. When he wants to go with a crazy discount, but I'm like, "Wait man, you have to also consider the people that bought the product before that."
You have to create a balance where people are not upset. So we're always structuring our bundles in a way where people are okay with that. But that's basically it. It really comes down to communication and understanding what's the outcome for each individual in there. And also keeping yourself accountable. Oftentimes when you work with friends and family people tend to slack off after a while. And it's very difficult to have that conversation with them because they're family, right? So you don't want to mess up the relationship. And that's something that the expectations part really plays a big role in.
Felix: Yeah. It almost sounds like these kinds of problems that you face when you're working with family or friends, the same problems you face when you're working with people that are not family and friends. Just that you let the boundaries kind of dissipate more, let it go longer because if what you're saying is kind of a hard conversation to have when there's a layer of the relationship that's involved. So are there things that you've learned to do formally, like every week we do certain things a certain way to make sure that we do establish these kinds of boundaries where there's expectations. And the one thing I really liked about what you said about communication was that the breakdown happens when you do something and then expect something else to happen. Either your partner does something back or to respond in a certain way but it doesn't happen. How do you make sure that that's kind of contained?
Kamil: It's really about the roles and it's kind of like a routine almost. It even comes down to start sending each other invoices. It sounds simple, but it really is part of the thing. So I have this media company that basically sends him an invoice every month and we're basically going through okay, this is what we're doing. This is what I did. This is what you did in a very informal sense. But you need to just have those routines that kind of keep you on track and really make you realize, "Hey, we're working on a business together here." But on the other side, I also want to say that there's huge upsides when you work with somebody that you can really trust because you can trust them. And when the business doesn't do so well every once in a while you know you have each other's back and that's huge in business.
Felix: Yeah. And a couple of quotes that I've pulled from other kinds of interviews you've done that I really want to dive into because I think they really stood out was one of them that you said was that a mentor told you this, which was that "You can go broke as often as you want until you're 50." Tell us more about that. Tell us about what that means to you.
Kamil: Okay. A little bit of context, that was back in Germany and things changed now. I don't recommend that to anybody, but it was just something where when you grow up in Germany you have a very different mindset. You don't really have this entrepreneurial mindset. And what he meant by that basically is saying to go out in the world and see what you like and try out different things. And don't worry about it because in the end, if you really stick to something that you like, then there's a high likelihood that you'll figure out the money part. So, that was basically the idea. And coming from this upbringing where you're really, once you leave school, you almost have your entire life planned out. When you retire going off in the world and doing something on your own is very kind of a strange journey from that perspective.
So that really stuck with me in a way when I was living in Hawaii and I was a beach bum like I said before and I was trying out different things. I was working on really big startups, big companies, but also I was always happy to try out new things because I knew I still had some time and it worked out.
Felix: Yeah. I think it's still a really valid point. I mean, the logistics behind going broke a bunch of times that's not, I don't think what we're getting at. I think the point that I pulled out of it was that don't worry so much about all the missed shots or the failures or don't look backwards. And it sounds like you've gone through lots of different phases in your journey to get to this point. How do you make sure that you aren't so focused on the rear view mirror or so focused on the failures and always making sure that you can pull yourself back on the path?
Kamil: I just think that if you frame it in a different way where you're almost like a video game character that creates some new skill by failing, right? So you need to just learn from what you did and what worked, what didn't. The only problem I really have is when you don't learn something from your mistakes, then it's a waste of time. And that's really how I frame it. And that's why also I would not want to change anything that happened in the past because it really led me to where I am today. So it's really something that's important and it's valuable. You can't get to your finish line without hiccups. That just doesn't happen.
Felix: Yeah. I think that the idea that this is not the end of the story each time too is important that, oh, this failure is not the end. That you have all these other chances. And one thing you also had mentioned previously was about how you make sure to surround yourself with the people that you want to become. Tell us more about that. What does that mean for you?
Kamil: Yeah, it's really that simple. Just as an example, when I moved to the states, I never really spoke English before. It's a very simple example, but I learned it in school. But speaking it and applying it is different than just learning it. So I was a student and there were a lot of other German students, but I would never hang out with them outside of school because I really wanted to learn how to speak English properly. And I still tried to keep a little bit of my German accent, but I think I did pretty well compared to my other friends from Germany that were just hanging out with the other Germans. And that's just based on language now, but the same thing really applies to any other area in your life. If you want to become an entrepreneur, then join networking meetings with other entrepreneurs.
Personally, I started a ... I worked on a startup ecosystem in Hawaii back in the day where I would meet a lot of VCs and people from Silicon Valley and from China and all that type of stuff. So really it's that simple. If you want to become someone, or you have this persona with a certain skill set that you like to approximate yourself to, then just try to reach out to those people and try to also create some sort of a value exchange, not just hanging out with them, but there's always something that you can do that they can't and you just have to figure out what that is so that you're becoming part of that group.
Felix: Makes sense. I think a big part of it is just, well the other thing you mentioned too is around how there really is no magic trick. There's no secret way to getting to your goals and what I get out of that is that you just kind of have to work at it. So tell us more about that. What are some things, obstacles that you had faced along the way where you're like, this is pretty a pretty big obstacle. What are some examples of things you've done to kind of figure it out?
Kamil: I think that a lot of times in today's world people are really looking for the shortcut type of approach to business. And I'm not saying that you can't be lucky or anything, but counting on that is a little bit difficult. So I would just really, I'm not a big fan of working hard, but I'm a fan of working smart. So what I mean when I say there's no magic trick, is that really everything, especially in today's world is available to you. I think people should read more books and biographies, especially because that basically helps you go through the journey of somebody else and avoid some mistakes. Maybe you get the inspiration from what they did. So that's that when I mean there was no magic trick. And what was your question about this?
Felix: Yeah. Just some examples of things that seem like overnight successes maybe for you or obstacles that you had overcome by just kind of figuring it out.
Kamil: I mean, some of my previous projects that I worked on, some of them had included gadgets that we put also on Kickstarter and all that. But we were working on ... We didn't really build them but we were more like a front for another manufacturer to sell it. And that was almost something that felt too easy and it was in the end because you don't really have any say about the manufacturing process and the quality control and all that type of stuff. So it might seem easy. But then there is a hiccup because the product hits the customer and then you're basically just sitting there and you can't do anything because you're the face of the company. And that was one of the things that I wouldn't do again. And that's why I'm happy that we're with Fragrance One. It's just not just Jeremy's face on something. We're really, we're sourcing every little detail of the product. And yeah. Does that answer your question in that regard?
Felix: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I want to talk a little about the website now. So you had mentioned to us that one of the key features of getting customers return I think is with the loyalty program. Tell us more about that. What apps are you using and how do you use them?
Kamil: The loyalty program is relatively new. We're using the one that's called Smile Rewards, and has a really nice interface. I like how you can set up rewards that people get. The currency's compliments our store, which kind of makes sense with the brand. Yeah, so we've been doing pretty well with that. Although the biggest impact that we had in terms of apps was really the bundles. That made a lot of sense, because like I mentioned before our fragrances we know they're relatively pricey, especially for our audience that comes with Jeremy's subscribers. But we try to, since it's a direct to customer business, we're happy to give discounts here and there. So when you're following the brand and following our social media outlets, then there's always a good chance that you'll be part of something like a giveaway or maybe you'll get a buy one, get one free.
And that's also enticing for people to kind of stay in touch with us on Instagram or somewhere else. But yeah, the bundle was a big deal because that basically helps justify spending a couple of 100 dollars on a couple of products in that regard. And for that we use the one from Thematic and a UFE Cross Sell, and Upsell is something I just started a couple of days ago. I really like their interface. I was always wondering why you guys at Shopify don't have a bundled function that's integrated.
Felix: Yeah. It's interesting. I've been hearing more and more from entrepreneurs that are doing this like bundling being that the big difference maker that ... Especially when it comes to products that people maybe don't have as much knowledge as possible that they just want an answer. What's everything that I need to solve this problem? And you piece it together for them. So tell us more about how you decide to bundle. Is it putting together all the products? Is it putting together specific products? How do you know what to bundle for your customers?
Kamil: We just basic, it depends on whether there is something like Valentine's Day or International Women's Day, or maybe a date bundle where we have the Date for Men and Night for Women fragrance put together. So it's more situational. How can people apply it? What makes sense in their eyes? We also have fragrance candles. One is called Movie Night, and then we have the Date for Men, the Night for Women and the Movie Night candle. Right? So those are kind of the thought processes that go in when we decide on the bundle. And we also we're open for suggestions. On a discord for example, we are asking people and we get all kinds of requests and we had a couple of bestseller bundles that were generated by our community.
Felix: Amazing. So fragrance.one is the website. And I'll leave you this last question. What would you say has been the biggest lesson that you, or that maybe the company has learned over the past year that you want to apply moving forward?
Kamil: I can't stress enough to really figure out what the customer is trying to solve. And that's been said often times before, but it's really so important. That's really the essence of why our business is working because we're focusing on the true, why am I buying this fragrance? And it also goes to show you that during this last year that you would think, or at least I was thinking at the beginning of last year when everybody was home, why would people buy fragrance? But it really is not just to even not only compliment, that's one thing that we knew. But a new thing that we found out, we actually grew by 40% last year is people buy fragrances because it makes them feel better. When you put on a frequency even if you're at home, you're getting into a different mode. When you're on the Zoom meeting, you put on a suit, or even when you just work from home, I suggest to really dress up nicely as if you would go to the office and it puts you into a different mode.
Kamil: So if you can tap into that emotion and the real problem that your product may solve for the customers, I think then you're good.
Felix: Amazing. So again fragrance.one is the website. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experience Kamil.
Kamil: Thank you.