Felix: Today I'm joined by Jonathan Proper from Dropps. Dropps harnesses the power of nature to create laundry detergent pods and other household cleaning products, and was started in 1992 and based out of Chicago. Welcome, Jonathan.


Jonathan: Thank you.


Felix: Yeah.


Jonathan: So great to be here. I'm so excited. It's a beautiful day, and I get to spend some time with you and... You've developed such an incredible following and podcast, and I'm truly honored to be part of it. So, thank you again for reaching out and including Dropps.


Felix: For sure. One thing that we were just talking about right off air was that 1992 as a start date for a business is pretty old in this world of lots of business propping up online. And you just started in a much different world back then. So tell us more about that. What was the world like back then? And kind of walk us maybe high-level through the big either inflection points or evolutions of the business as the world went more online, e-commerce kicked into full gear.


Jonathan: Yeah, sure. I'll try and give you the Cliff Note version, if you will. We did have phones in 1992, but not that many cell phones in those days. Or, the cell phones were the size of bananas. But in any case, we were just a detergent in a bottle. We were a concentrated detergent, so we always cared about not shipping water all over the country. Because as we say, the water's in the washer, so the only thing you need to put into the washer is what's going to clean the clothes.


Because our product was so concentrated, and at that time also plant-based ingredients, we sold it only with where apparel was sold. So, sort of like shoe polish with shoes. It was a product for machine washing and drying cotton sweaters. It's actually the parent name, called Cot’n Wash.


So, the company continued to grow over the years. It still is a modest company. Basically the sales came in through an 800 number to the consumer. There was no website really to speak of. It was very hard to develop websites that had e-commerce in those days.


But then around 2006, we developed a liquid laundry pod. That was just an additional extension from this concentrated detergent we had. We had an insight that consumers loved our product, but they hated measuring and pouring it. And so we came across a technology for putting liquid in a dissolvable pouch. It was a patented technology. We bought the patent.


And then it was time to rebrand it, and rebranding was Dropps. Dropps is an acronym actually, dissolvable, ready to use, organic pre measured pod. But some people just thought it, my last name is Proper, and some people call me Props, and they just thought it was a dyslexic version of Props, that the D was just inverted to make Dropps. But actually, it's quite more than that.


And then, fortunately it is a verb and it is a noun, so it had a lot of benefits as a brand. In the early years, since we were the first to develop the liquid laundry pod, it made sense for us to go retail. It's sort of like when you went down a laundry detergent aisle, it's just row after row of bottle after bottle. I call those bottles the most expensive bottle of water you can buy. We thought that by having a pod we would be like the Apple on the shelf. It's all PCs, and what's the price of the PCs, and then there's Apple.


Dropps was that way to some degree. But one of the things that we found out as a small player in a big person's world is the system is somewhat rigged. In terms of getting a position on the shelf that you want, it's not that easy. You either get put on the bottom or the top of the shelf. And so the person who's driving around in the cart, who really, it's somewhat of a burden to carry a heavy jug around can't even reach your product, because it's on the top shelf.


And so then, we had to, in 2012, Big Laundry, as I call it, they came out with their version of the liquid laundry pod. With that, the big brands now had competition on the shelf. But competition is good in a certain way, because it actually makes the market potentially larger. If you have two people going after the same thing, Coke and Pepsi, you overall make all much larger soda market than if it was just Coke by themselves.


In any case, as a part of that we had some litigation, and we sort of had to fight through that. And then, we come out around 2016, and we're now being really sort of beaten up on the shelf. And we say, "We have the most concentrated laundry pod out there." The consumer's learning quite well how to buy product online, and the benefit of companies like Dollar Shave Club and Harry's, that tell people how to buy on subscription.


At that point, we didn't have to educate people about pods, because we knew we had the best pod out there from the standpoint of it's the most powerful, it's based on plant-based ingredients, and it has high efficacy in terms of cleaning. And we don't put all that stuff in it like color, because color doesn't clean. It's also the most efficient, because it's nine grams versus the other 20 to 25 gram pods, so it gives us a shipping advantage in terms of delivering to the customer.


And then you look around, in terms of developing a website, and there's some really expensive solutions out there. But then there's some that are reasonable, and easy to use, and that's Shopify. I really say that Shopify saved our business. Because at that point, it delivered us a good way of putting all of our products on our shelf, rather than someone else's shelf. And displaying our products in the way we wanted to display those products.


And we felt we needed to do a anthem video to drive the consumer to the Dropps page. We felt what we did was quite successful. Since that time, we've had 19 straight quarters of growth, and the applications that Shopify has, that they run on the basic platform, in terms of Klaviyo and Stamp.io, and Recharge. 


Shopify today is the foundation. We talked about content, all of our content, and that's the base of the tree from which Instagram content goes, and TikTok content goes, and YouTube. So, it's just an amazing platform. And as I say, it's been the key to our business and our business growth and the business model that really works.


As a small, as someone who's starting a business, or thinking about starting a business, or putting their products online, you can't get any product out there that's more user-friendly, more cost-effective than Shopify. I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, I guess, but it tastes real good.


Felix: Great way of putting it. So, appreciate that kind of overview. I want to dive into pieces of this. The journey really begins where you had to try to survive in the world that existed, which was a lot of Big Retail, I usually call it, that the system was rigged against you. Is this how the world still works today? What's your observation about this for people that are introducing new product into the marketplace, and either by choice or involuntarily has to go through brick-and-mortar retail? Will they face the same kind of challenges that you think you faced early on?


Jonathan: Absolutely. And it's even more competitive today. And the reason it's more competitive today is because, as I say, every day someone dies, a retail store is closed, and every day someone's born you have a new internet shopper. And so, that shelf, with shrinking sales coming from traditional bricks and mortar, it just makes it a more competitive space.


I tell this story. When you sell to a big retailer, you deliver pallets to one of their DCs or warehouses. And from that warehouse, they distribute to anywhere between 15 and 20 of their stores. And so, going to the buyer, we're going to... One truckload of our product equals three truckloads of theirs. Which would you rather distribute? "Well, I'd rather distribute your product." "Okay."


I'm going to give you 30 points, and they're giving you 12 to 13. Which would you rather sell? "Well, I'd rather sell your product." Well then, why don't you put me at least at eye level so someone could actually find us. "No, we can't do that. Because Big Laundry will take all their product out of the store if we do."


So, they're so dependent on those big brands, who are doing national advertising to drive people into the store, that it's really hard for the little guy to have a chance. But in cyberspace, it's a more equal playing field. The digital space is a much more equal playing field.


And you can also tell your story. You walk down the shelf in a retail store, it's a split second. Especially, you may linger a little bit in the vegetable aisle, but when it comes to how much time are you spending looking at toilet paper, and figuring out what you're going to buy? You find something you like, you stick with it, and you might as well just have it delivered, rather than spending the time and the effort to go to a store to get it.


I guess what I'd say to any entrepreneur is, be successful in one distribution first. Don't try multiple distributions until you really licked one. And probably the one that's easiest to lick is the digital one. Because you are able to really present yourself in a way that you can tell your story. It's hard to tell your story at the big box retailer.


Felix: So again, we had mentioned at the top of this interview that you started business in 1992. When was the transition online? When did you start selling maybe not most of your sales, but when did you start making the transition to offering your products online?
Jonathan: We started selling them actually as early as 2006, with a very Cro-Magnon man kind of website, or an e-commerce site, if you will. But, it was just a... It wasn't subscription-based at all. It was really just a stepchild. Because we were in all these retailers, and therefore we didn't want to be in competition with those stores.


Jonathan: Once we made the decision to say, "Ah, no more retail," then we could price our product the way we wanted to price our product, and do a sale when we wanted to do a sale, give money back guarantees to people, and free trials to people. We can't do that when you're on the shelf. Or you'll have retailers upset at you that you're doing these things online and not giving them those same benefits. So, once you exit it, you feel very free.


And it was a big decision, because you lose a lot of sales initially. But as I say, it didn't stop us from growing every quarter since.


Felix: Yeah.


Jonathan: So clearly, it was the right move. And Shopify has really grown. It's continued to stay relevant, very relevant for us. We've moved to Shopify Plus, and that's fantastic. It gives us a dedicated person to work with us, and work through any kinds of issues we may have. And with some of the applications that we have, the added cost of Shopify Plus is mitigated by the reduction in cost and some of those applications. So, really you get the benefit without getting the cost. And so, it's been terrific for us.


Felix: Yeah. So during this transition to online you mentioned how freeing it was, but there's still a cost to it, because there's a distribution channel that you're either removing yourself from completely, or just transitioning your focus off of. Was there anything that you learned through this process for anyone else that might want to do this transition as well, where their main distribution channel is through brick and mortar retail, and now want to start selling more, shifting over to online? What did you learn during that period?


Jonathan: I guess what I learned is if you're in both channels of distribution, you just have to be very cognizant of your pricing. And how one price change or one sale affects everything else. And so, to the extent you are very clear and understanding what's going on in terms of pricing, so that you are not creating a competitor in the retailer, but you're doing it in such a way that they remain good partners for you.


Felix: That makes sense. Now I want to talk a little bit about competition. You had mentioned that competition is good, it makes the market larger. Can you talk more about that? I think there's always this concern for maybe newer entrepreneurs, where they either are hesitant to go into an industry that already has established large competitors, or they're worried about a competitor in the space all of a sudden rearing their head and trying to create the same price that they're creating. Similar to the experience that you went through. Talk to us about that. What is your relationship with competition when you start seeing it appear?


Jonathan: Well first of all, we'll recommend to people to go into large categories. Because there's always niches in large categories. And also going to categories that are growing. Because categories that are growing are, you're likely to expand with that growth. Competition should always look at, in my view, the big picture, what the big market is, and not what the small-market is.


Even though there may be some eco-friendly products that are plant-based products out there that they think we're the competitor. I say to those folks, "We're not the competitor. Big Laundry's our competitor." And that otherwise, it's just two bald people fighting over a comb. There is no point in going after each other when there's so much opportunity, and the consumer is always looking for more efficient, better sustainable solutions, looking for convenience. As long as you're delivering that to the consumer...


And especially the consumers who are very concerned about sustainability, very concerned about what's going back into of the earth. And if you can give the consumer solutions and make it easy for them... One of the problems with a plastic container of laundry detergent is the cap has a different recycle than the bottle. And then you're shipping all this water around. As I said before, that it was the machine that has the water. And you say, "Well, what do I do with it?" Because one recycles one way, the other recycles another way, and just becomes... you sort of give up.


That's why almost 80 plus percent of products aren't really recycled. Because the consumer wants to do the right thing, but it's difficult. Now, we delivered to the consumer in a cardboard box that's compostable, so they don't have to think about it. It can either go in the trash, or they can put a plant and it and garden. And there's no residue. There's nothing left over when you finish a box of Dropps, because it's all premeasured packets, and the liquid in the packet completely dissolves. So, we made it convenient for the consumer to use, and we also made it convenient for them to do the right thing, so that every Dropps can count towards saving water, saving plastic, as well as time, energy. And so, getting the consumer, making it easier for the consumer, we're always... We know.


Felix: You mentioned to us too about how over the years, the impact of climate change became more visible, and then as a result consumer behavior started shifting to more sustainability. I guess when you first started in 1992, it sounds like at least back then it just wasn't top of mind, and today it's very top of mind. Talk to us about how this played a role in the growth of your business, the shift in... Actually, may be to start, what was it like back in 1992? Did people care about this kind of stuff back then?


Jonathan: Well, we cared about it back then. That's why our actual detergent at the time, Cot’n Wash, was twice as concentrated as the other products out there. Since we were selling pods, you had someone helping you sell. In other words, the sweater was being sold, and then if you want the sweater to look as good as it does today a few months from now, use this product. That they could then educate the consumer in that you only need an ounce of this product, rather than two to three ounces. Which was the traditional laundry detergent at that time.


And then we always had plants as a component to our formula. And of course, it's just become predominant now, and we use more enzymes now, which are natural enzymes in terms of getting real cleaning efficacy.


So, we had that DNA. And then part of that DNA, I'm embarrassed to say, I was at the first Earth Day, which was 50 years ago, in Philadelphia. It was a beautiful day, set on the hill in Fairmount Park in Belmont Hill. Politicians, Republicans, Democrats, all celebrating this glorious Park, and day, and that kickoff to preserving the environment, if you will. There was no red state blue state. There was Republicans and Democrats all for Mother Earth, if you will. Or Person Earth today.


And so, it is sort of in our company's DNA. Sustainability is not an and state, it's a journey. You never reach it, but you keep working at it and improving on it. With each iteration, if you make it better, then it's better. So, yes, to your point it wasn't as prevalent back then. It's something that sort of has really gained momentum, and gained momentum with your generation, not even necessarily my generation. But my generation wants its legacy, it wants to leave a good place for its children and grandchildren. So, it has that importance.


And seeing what's been happening with our environment, in terms of fires, and whether, and everything else, something's causing it, that's for sure. If we can do things to mitigate those causes, we'll be around a long time.


Felix: Were you surprised by this shift? It's happened basically during the lifetime of your business. Were you surprised by the growth of the awareness?


Jonathan: Yeah. It's really exciting. It's funny, because we did a video called The Naked Truth About Laundry. That idea a little bit came from the movie The Naked Truth, that was put out about the environment. But, what was sort of a footnote in the news is now a headline. Because it's affecting us. Unfortunately, people may have talked about it 20 years ago, but they didn't necessarily consider it a threat. Once your forests and your homes start burning down, or floods, all of a sudden it becomes real. Which, unfortunately it takes catastrophic events to get people to change.


Felix: When this was happening, there was a shift in this consumer behavior. Was there any education that you had to be involved in to explain why your product, your company was on the side of sustainability?


Jonathan: First of all, it's just practical. We're not judgmental. There's obviously things we do wrong, there's other things we do wrong in my personal life. Someone will say, "That's not the most sustainable way to do things." But if we all do something, or if we're all at least conscious of it, then it will be better, and it means there will be improvement. I think today it's just very much a part of everyone's conversation.


Felix: Yeah. Whenever I speak to brands and companies that are focused on stain ability, there is this theme of green washing that's involved, where a lot of their messaging is drowned out by larger corporations that might be talking about sustainability, but don't actually represent it as truthfully as they're probably saying it. Has this become a challenge where... Again back to the education piece. I think one part that you said was that you're not judgmental about it, and this is just kind of about incremental progress in the right direction. Do you face any kind of skepticism when you have a business like this because there's just so much more, it's a trendier, I guess, topic or angle for a lot of businesses to focus on?


Jonathan: The way I've thought about it is that cleaning efficacy and sustainability are not mutually exclusive. At the end of the day, we have to perform as a product. We have to clean laundry, and clean the dishes. If we're not doing that really well, then for the consumer it doesn't matter how sustainable you are. But today, fortunately, we have ingredients and tools that are more sustainable, and can make better products.


We may cost a little bit more, but if you use enough of them, they'll then become more mainstream, and those prices will eventually go down. Because of the buy-in that's involved, and the fact that the consumer is drawn towards those type of products.


But to your point, we're just trying to show how we do it, and how we think it might be a way of saving water, or saving energy, or avoiding waste from bottles that take a week or two to use, but a lifetime to degrade. We're moving those things from our product first to things that people use every day. So that we're trying to give as little or no waste after our product is used by the consumer.


As I say, it's just getting new tools. If they have better tools out there, we're going to look for those. But again, it's got to work, and then it has to be a way that it's not dramatically changing consumers' behavior. Rather than trying to hit them over the head with some sort of new way of doing things.


So, the old way that they're doing things, you can give them a path that's easier than the old way, and then you could somehow, using less water or less energy. That may not be environmentally conscious, but your water bill's lower, or your energy bills lower. That's equally important to the consumer.


Felix: Yeah. I think that's a really important point, about how as new, again, sustainability focused businesses pop up, it's still important to know that that feature of sustainability is still often secondary, even though it may be close in second place, to the efficacy and the convenience of the product. The usefulness of the product is still, for the most part, the most important thing to get right, and then the sustainability aspect of it is a really great bonus. Is that the way that you see consumers behave towards products that have this kind of sustainability baked into it?


Jonathan: I think so. There are people who are driven just by the sustainability message. That may create trial, but it doesn't necessarily create repetition for the consumer. Because I guess they're going to be frustrated if it doesn't work well. And they're going to say, "It's not clean, so I'm going back." As I say, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. We just have to spend a little bit more time and a little bit more money to develop something that's better. But you'll be rewarded for it.


Felix: Yeah. Let's talk about that. Talk about product development. You kind of hinted or talked briefly about the evolution of the different products you're introducing. Talk to us about how you and your team develop new products today. Where does it begin, and walk us through the process of developing products, from the beginning all the way to putting them out into the market.


Jonathan: Well, yeah. One of the things, in any business, talking to suppliers and talking to your customers are really important. Listening to both. Listening to what they like not only about your product, but other products, suppliers about what's the latest in terms of technology that might be out there. Now, in terms of... We have in the Chicago facility a full laboratory. We have washing machines, automatic dishwashers, all to develop, test products over and over again.


Because we want to make sure what we're passing on to the consumer meets our guidelines in terms of cleans well, and are better than the leading brand in a category, and having a much better chemical formula profile, ingredient profile, as well as reduced packaging. So, all of those things are engineered to the design process of developing a product.


It's funny, because the bulk of our business is in laundry pods, and that's been... detergent for skin sensitivity. And then our specialty essentially is active wear, because of all this active apparel takes on odors that we call a permastink, that's hard to eliminate.


And then the accessory products, boosters for... Oxy boosters or softeners. All of these products go through rigorous testing and development. For example, our softener is very different than another company's software. Our softener actually softens the fabric, rather than leaves a slick coding on the fabric. That's why towels over a period of time sometimes be water off of them. Our softener actually allows them to still absorb water. So, all of this is just investing in ingredients, and products, and packaging that through insights from the consumer and from suppliers, to develop better solutions.


What's sort of interesting is that the two main narratives are this laundry and then automatic dishwasher. They're both machines. A lot of household products won't be put into a machine. But, our two new products are being put into the machine. So, we say if your clothes aren't clean or your dishes aren't clean, you probably need a new machine. It's not our product.


But a lot of people think at first, because I've got $1000 invested in my machine, and it's not clean, it's obviously the product. In our case, we know it's the machine.


Felix: Yeah. That's an important a side that I think is worth covering, as around educate... Because you have so many different products that you're releasing. Is there any aspect around educating users on how to use your products effectively?


Jonathan: No question. And that's why the Shopify platform is great too. Because it becomes content is everything, and developing content, and developing videos, and how-to videos, and... Because consumers really love how-to videos. They're on the go, they're on their phones a lot of times. It's very easy to watch a short 15 to a minute video on...


For example, one of the most open items for us is how to wash a baseball cap, in the dishwasher rather than the washing machine. People are fascinated by that. Because the temperature of the dishwasher gets much hotter than your washing machine, and your hat takes on a lot of bacteria when it's worn several days in a row. So, content, videos, which then work off of the Shopify platform, and then go into TikTok, and Instagram, and Facebook, and YouTube. All are really important for the consumer.


That's what brings me back to the brand. That's how we can distinguish ourselves from the typical retailer. We'll tell you how to take care of a cashmere sweater, as opposed to, I don't know, some bought answering your inquiry. All of which are part of developing a story, developing a brand. But, the how-tos in all categories are really just eaten up by the consumer. They want to know.


Felix: Yeah. And we kind of talked about this from... At least when I asked the question it was coming from a perspective of an existing customer, and I just googled how to wash a baseball hat now, and the blog page that you guys have is ranked very high. Is that a also source of new customers, people just searching for how to solve a particular problem? That might not be a customer of yours yet, find an article like this, and all of a sudden become a customer?


Jonathan: Yeah, no question. So yeah, it's a problem, solving a problem on Google. Usually they're also on the Amazon platform. In a lot of places people search for products on Amazon, but they search product problems on Google, or people on Google. And so, yes, it's what very much drives people to the Shopify or the Dropps website.


Felix: Yeah. And is this kind of content, like the example of how to watch baseball hats, is that content obvious for you and the team? Where does the source or the idea behind what kind of content to create, what kind of problems your customers are facing that your product could solve for them? Is it easy to come up with that kind of content?


Jonathan: I don't know. One of the great... we put out there, which was sort of fun, the great controversy how to load the dishwasher. Are the forks up? Are the forks down? Are they together? If you talk to a bunch of people and you hear sort of a things that they, not fight about, but they tease each other about, and those help drive content. Or, you get a lot of customers come to you with a problem, and when you see a number of the same problems coming, you then want to develop content solutions for them.


Felix: Are these typically your customers reaching out to you and your team asking these kind of questions? If a listener out there wants to start creating content like this, where do you think is the biggest kind of trove of problems to find, to solve, with content?


Jonathan: Well, I think they go to YouTube for content solutions, in a lot of cases. Don't you feel that way?


Felix: Yeah, I think so. Do you have a presence there too, creating YouTube content?


Jonathan: Yeah. Both on our own videos, and then some of our partner influencers have developed videos on YouTube. The good thing about YouTube is it's there for a long time. Whereas an ad on Instagram or TikTok sort of come and go. And so I think it is, as a platform for education, we may not be as effective in initial performance marketing. It has a longer tail to it. That's why it's important, I would recommend creating content that will sit on YouTube, and that over time will get watched.


Felix: Yeah. And you talked about product influencers here, and you also mentioned earlier about how the content, it sounded like it gets repurposed for Instagram or TikTok. Talk to us about that. When you create a core piece of content, a how-to video or something, how does it then make it onto Instagram or TikTok? Is it changed for the format that people might expect on Instagram or TikTok? How do you make sure you're creating the content in the right context or right format for the platform?


Jonathan: Yeah. It does have to be in a form that the viewer can watch it. But the basis of it is a blog, and the blog which is hosted on the Shopify platform. As I say, that's the base of the tree from which all the branches grow, in terms of social media. So, Shopify's really created this great sturdy base from which to send out all this information. And yes, it has to be in different formats for the different venues or channels, if you will. But it all comes from the Shopify blog.


Felix: Yeah. One thing that I actually spoke very recently to another entrepreneur about is around content that goes on TikTok. One thing that they were surprised about was how willing the users on TikTok were to consume educational information, like how I think's a good example of that. Have you noticed that too? What kind of content seems to work well for TikTok in your industry, and your experience?


Jonathan: Yeah, education. There's all sorts of different categories. But 15 second information pieces on TikTok, very effective. It's not something that you get right away, but you just have to be prolific at it. It's a lot, but short. And it's really like throwing spaghetti against the wall, but certain things will stick. And over time, will stick in the mind of the consumer that this is information coming from a source that knows about this category, and knows about these products, or knows about my problems, as they relate to active wear, or getting my white sheets really white, things like that.


Felix: Yeah. One thing that I think a lot of brands are attempting to be sensitive about when it comes to TikTok is not to be overly pushy with the kind of product, or a call to action. What's your experience, or how do you provide this education, this valuable content, but at the end of the day you look at the goal is still to get a first time buyer, or a repeat buyer from that experience? How do you balance the two?


Jonathan: There's really not as much call to action with TikTok. It's more of awareness and information. Because at the moment, but it may become one, it's not particularly a transactional platform. But, more could be using it, and if they like certain information, they want to be able to buy it right away. So they probably will over time head over that direction. At the moment it's just getting the message out quickly, in a fun way.


Felix: Yeah. One other thing that I've noticed too when I just was browsing through your Instagram was this kind of use of almost infographics, where it's educational, but it's laid out in... I can't think of a better term than an infographic. Has that also been effective on Instagram, or what works best on that platform?


Jonathan: Yeah. I think people are visual, but they also need words. Everyone learns differently. Some people learn by just, aren't looking at their phones and are just listening. Other people are looking at their phones, and if the images that educate them. So, I think you just need to display the same information in different ways, so that you're recruiting everybody in that process or journey.


Felix: You and me have been talking about the kind of tools that you use outside of your website, and you had mentioned earlier some tools that you use for your website for the backend of your business. You've mentioned Recharge, probably for the subscription service that you provide. You mentioned Stamp.io for the reviews. Are there any other kind of apps that you rely on heavily that have been really impactful for your business?


Jonathan: Yeah, Klaviyo, on the email chain. And then Shopify plus the Flow, which gets us to test various thing at check out without being live. And so, those are the apps that we're using the most.


Felix: Yeah. Any changes or iterations that you made to the website that have made a big impact? Whether using apps or not, any changes that you have implemented or tested that have led to either greater retention time, or actual sales?


Jonathan: Every three months or every some period of time you need to do an audit of your website. You may have some apps that are running on the website that may be slowing the website down. Speed is very important for the consumer, in terms of loading or things like that. Secondly, we use tools to do the up-selling, the cross-selling at checkout. These are also important features for that process, in terms of purchasing products.


The importance of audit. Making sure that the apps that you're using are integrated into your business, are not affecting your speeds in terms of delivering pages to the consumer. And measuring what it is both on the phone and on the desktop.


Felix: Makes sense. So, Dropps.com. D-R-O-P-P-S.com is the website. I'll leave you with this last question. What do you think is going to be, or what is the biggest challenge that you are the business is focused on solving over the next year of the business?


Jonathan: Well, the change of iOS has certainly impacted all direct to consumer companies, in they're ready to do performance marketing as efficiently as they once did. But, necessity becomes the mother of invention, and therefore we have to look for... everyone's experiencing that same thing, so look for other ways to reach the consumer with your content and with your messages. I would say that's the greatest... That event this year has posed one of the greatest challenges.


Felix: Makes sense. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, Jonathan. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story, your experience, and your advice.


Jonathan: Oh, it was my pleasure, Felix. It really was wonderful to spend some time with you, and talk to you, and try and answer your very probing questions. Always makes you think about your business, not much more, and in a deeper context. So, I appreciate your reaching out in this way. To have us tell the story, but also have us think about our business, and what we're doing going forward.